112 replies to this topic

[Lee Nicolle]

Years ago my father got himself an electric mobility scooter. It was cheap because the control box was fried. We sent the control box away to get repaired but in the meantime I figured that with two 12v batteries and two wiper motors (seriously!) it couldn't be that hard to just just hook up a simple toggle switch to turn the motors on and off to get this baby rolling!
So parked on the front lawn I sat on the chair and flicked the switch and immediately found myself laying on my back with a mobility scooter on top of me.
I learned that you needed to lean forwards before flicking the switch.

The control box feeds in the power very gently and then governs it to a set speed. I overrode all common sense and turned it into a dangerous weapon. My father used it this way for a week till the repaired control box arrived and then he complained about the lack of top speed!

With the right controls you can make it do whatever you want.

The control is just a sophisticated rheostat and they seem to fry very regularly. And the price thty charge to fix those scooters makes servicing cars oh so cheap.

[Lee Nicolle]

What a load of nonsense. Electric MGUs can be build for rpm and for torque just as you need them. There are excellent super high torque designs. It is complete nonsense to think that race car motors need high revs that are then reduced by gear boxes to manageable levels.




You demonstrate your ignorance once again. There is nothing on earth in automotive technology that controls traction with the accuracy, speed and loop frequency of an AC servo MGU. The physics of such drives require inherent torque and power control on a micro second basis. If you do not master that kind of electric field control the machine will neither run as a motor nor as a generator.

I wonder what the LMP1 drivers of the last 5 years will say to your concept of hard revving as the only way to accelerate a race car. They hardly do more than 5.000 rpm and accelerate bloody hard.

Personally I drive a one series BMW 2L turbo diesel rear wheel drive. Its got massive torque for a little hatch back and I seldom go beyond 2.000 rpm when I accelerate hard. Only when I am above 80 mph and acceleration reduces I get into higher revs like 3.000-5.000 rpm. I would love to drive one of the BMW i8 when they will hit the streets. But I'm afraid I'll never have the excess cash to burn.

http://www.bmw-i.de/de_de/bmw-i8/

The rules in Le Mans cars are so biased toward diesels is why they win.Doooh. Otherwise they are heavy inefficient engines. Lots of torque but not a lot of power. That is why diesels should stay where they are supposed to be. In heavy trucks and similar.

And clearly driving a BMW diesel you realise that your running expenses will be higher than a petrol when you take into account the maintenance.

And they are still stinking dirty things where you get your hands, shoes filthy everytime you refuel. Been there done that but with a Landcruiser.Which really is not much cheaper to refuel than a petrol and the engines are less reliable too it seems.And for everyday driving the petrol wins hands down for accelaration and speed.Once you get the diesel wound up on the open road it is ok, but a lot harder to get wound up. But for bush bashing the better low end torque of the nunga nunga is better. But since I do 95% of my motoring on ]road it is a no brainer to what I drive. And since it is on gas far cheaper to refuel and run anyway. Though gas is a inferior fuel with higher maintenace costs and harder on engines.
But open road it is about $12.25 to travel a 100k, $24.80 with a petrol or $22.50 with a diesel. And the diesel is far more to purchase and maintain.
And the diesel with an auto is far more gutless than the petrol and in turn harder on the auto box too. And turbo diesel is even worse.More maintenance costs.

[24gerrard]

Hmm, who needs refueling, maintanance costs or even a gearbox?
With another wind turbine I think I can get my energy costs under a penny a unit.
100k about £3.

[Lee Nicolle]

Hmm, who needs refueling, maintanance costs or even a gearbox?
With another wind turbine I think I can get my energy costs under a penny a unit.
100k about £3.

Yaaay, lets go to the end of the street. Not a 1000km a day.

[Lee Nicolle]

Hmm, who needs refueling, maintanance costs or even a gearbox?
With another wind turbine I think I can get my energy costs under a penny a unit.
100k about £3.

Yaaay, lets go to the end of the street. Not a 1000km a day.

[24gerrard]

Yaaay, lets go to the end of the street. Not a 1000km a day.

You said that twice Lee, lets make it three times so the people can digest it.

[J. Edlund]

The rules in Le Mans cars are so biased toward diesels is why they win.Doooh. Otherwise they are heavy inefficient engines. Lots of torque but not a lot of power. That is why diesels should stay where they are supposed to be. In heavy trucks and similar.

And clearly driving a BMW diesel you realise that your running expenses will be higher than a petrol when you take into account the maintenance.

And they are still stinking dirty things where you get your hands, shoes filthy everytime you refuel. Been there done that but with a Landcruiser.Which really is not much cheaper to refuel than a petrol and the engines are less reliable too it seems.And for everyday driving the petrol wins hands down for accelaration and speed.Once you get the diesel wound up on the open road it is ok, but a lot harder to get wound up. But for bush bashing the better low end torque of the nunga nunga is better. But since I do 95% of my motoring on ]road it is a no brainer to what I drive. And since it is on gas far cheaper to refuel and run anyway. Though gas is a inferior fuel with higher maintenace costs and harder on engines.
But open road it is about $12.25 to travel a 100k, $24.80 with a petrol or $22.50 with a diesel. And the diesel is far more to purchase and maintain.
And the diesel with an auto is far more gutless than the petrol and in turn harder on the auto box too. And turbo diesel is even worse.More maintenance costs.

I'll say the Le Mans regulations treat gasoline engine diesel engines quite fairly. A diesel engine needs more air in relation to the power they produce since they operate with air excess and since they can't rev as high as gasoline engines they need either a larger displacement or a higher boost pressure to compensate. Since they are more efficient and the fuel contains more energy per liter they are forced to run with smaller fuel tanks.

With european fuel prices an average midsize car will save around 500 euros per year due to the lower fuel costs, and aside from the slightly different engine sound and lower engine speeds used, you really won't notice any difference between a gas and a diesel engine. A diesel is slightly heavier, but that really can't be noticed. While a typical four cylinder gas engine have a weight of about 140 kg the diesel is at about 180 kg. A turbodiesel (essentially all diesels are turbodiesels these days) usually works very well with an automatic gearbox, which also have become more fuel efficient in the last few years.

[Lee Nicolle]

I'll say the Le Mans regulations treat gasoline engine diesel engines quite fairly. A diesel engine needs more air in relation to the power they produce since they operate with air excess and since they can't rev as high as gasoline engines they need either a larger displacement or a higher boost pressure to compensate. Since they are more efficient and the fuel contains more energy per liter they are forced to run with smaller fuel tanks.

With european fuel prices an average midsize car will save around 500 euros per year due to the lower fuel costs, and aside from the slightly different engine sound and lower engine speeds used, you really won't notice any difference between a gas and a diesel engine. A diesel is slightly heavier, but that really can't be noticed. While a typical four cylinder gas engine have a weight of about 140 kg the diesel is at about 180 kg. A turbodiesel (essentially all diesels are turbodiesels these days) usually works very well with an automatic gearbox, which also have become more fuel efficient in the last few years.

In the last year or two I have had short drives in a late Golf diesel, A Fiesta diesel and a 90s diesel Benz plus ofcourse Landcruisers, Patrols, Hilux, Triton, Pajero,Strangerover etc. And they were all gutless wonders in comparison to a petrol. Most I believe are ok once wound up, BUT still have poor acceleration when overtaking. The 'Cruiser I drove for a while was make a decision to pass from a long way back or you got stuck. Keep it on the boil. And the turbos really are little better. I shared the drive on one of those to melbourne once and that was brand new. Everybody in the car was very disapointed.That was a loaner while he was waiting for his near 10k cheaper petrol!! And once again only marginally better on fuel. Here in Adelaide deisel currently is about 10c a litre dearer than petrol. Why would you ever want a deisel?

Plus the maintenance costs are far dearer and in my experience baby diesels in cars have short lives and even Patrols and Cruisers are lucky to do 300k without major work. Petrols go a lot longer.

Cabbies will tell you the same, a cabbie I know bought a Benz pov pack diesel several years ago. He was told it would outlast all the petrols etc. It had full service history for its 40000km. And he hated it from day 1. The Falcon on gas running alongside it was cheaper to run by far and had not been touched when he sold it on at 300km. Unlike the Benz that had cost a small fortune in minor engine and trans maintenance and when he scrapped that at under 300k the engine was very unwell.

Like most private cabbies he buys ex govt Falcons [Or maybe a Holden] with about 40k on them and uses them for about 3 years. But some of those cars do 600000 km + and are still running ok.

[24gerrard]

In the last year or two I have had short drives in a late Golf diesel, A Fiesta diesel and a 90s diesel Benz plus ofcourse Landcruisers, Patrols, Hilux, Triton, Pajero,Strangerover etc. And they were all gutless wonders in comparison to a petrol. Most I believe are ok once wound up, BUT still have poor acceleration when overtaking. The 'Cruiser I drove for a while was make a decision to pass from a long way back or you got stuck. Keep it on the boil. And the turbos really are little better. I shared the drive on one of those to melbourne once and that was brand new. Everybody in the car was very disapointed.That was a loaner while he was waiting for his near 10k cheaper petrol!! And once again only marginally better on fuel. Here in Adelaide deisel currently is about 10c a litre dearer than petrol. Why would you ever want a deisel?

Plus the maintenance costs are far dearer and in my experience baby diesels in cars have short lives and even Patrols and Cruisers are lucky to do 300k without major work. Petrols go a lot longer.

Cabbies will tell you the same, a cabbie I know bought a Benz pov pack diesel several years ago. He was told it would outlast all the petrols etc. It had full service history for its 40000km. And he hated it from day 1. The Falcon on gas running alongside it was cheaper to run by far and had not been touched when he sold it on at 300km. Unlike the Benz that had cost a small fortune in minor engine and trans maintenance and when he scrapped that at under 300k the engine was very unwell.

Like most private cabbies he buys ex govt Falcons [Or maybe a Holden] with about 40k on them and uses them for about 3 years. But some of those cars do 600000 km + and are still running ok.

The truth is you are firmly in the hands of government taxation like everyone else.
The technology is of secondary importance.
It is exactly the same where I am.
I have a friend with a well established taxi company who buys three year old petrol vehicles usualy people carriers for school runs and outs them at 300k.
He would go all electric but the capital cost is to high and the range to low.
Diesels are now more expensive as well.
I have technical answers to the electric range problem but he is loath to risk the high investment.

[saudoso]

In the last year or two I have had short drives in a late Golf diesel, A Fiesta diesel and a 90s diesel Benz plus ofcourse Landcruisers, Patrols, Hilux, Triton, Pajero,Strangerover etc. And they were all gutless wonders in comparison to a petrol. Most I believe are ok once wound up, BUT still have poor acceleration when overtaking. The 'Cruiser I drove for a while was make a decision to pass from a long way back or you got stuck. Keep it on the boil. And the turbos really are little better. I shared the drive on one of those to melbourne once and that was brand new. Everybody in the car was very disapointed.That was a loaner while he was waiting for his near 10k cheaper petrol!! And once again only marginally better on fuel. Here in Adelaide deisel currently is about 10c a litre dearer than petrol. Why would you ever want a deisel?

Plus the maintenance costs are far dearer and in my experience baby diesels in cars have short lives and even Patrols and Cruisers are lucky to do 300k without major work. Petrols go a lot longer.

Cabbies will tell you the same, a cabbie I know bought a Benz pov pack diesel several years ago. He was told it would outlast all the petrols etc. It had full service history for its 40000km. And he hated it from day 1. The Falcon on gas running alongside it was cheaper to run by far and had not been touched when he sold it on at 300km. Unlike the Benz that had cost a small fortune in minor engine and trans maintenance and when he scrapped that at under 300k the engine was very unwell.

Like most private cabbies he buys ex govt Falcons [Or maybe a Holden] with about 40k on them and uses them for about 3 years. But some of those cars do 600000 km + and are still running ok.

I'm no way a diesel guy, I'd stick with petrol any day.

But.

My experience with diesels comes from vacations rental in europe. Usualy 10/15 day road trips putting 2K/3K km each time.
Mercedes C, Alfa Romeo, Citroen C4, Golf... I really got the impression that those babies would gor pretty fan on a liter of diesel. No scientific data, just the impression. Readings like 6l/100Km are usual. I have a L4 2.3 Fusion and the best possible is 9l/100Km on higways. 13l/100Km is my average.

[kikiturbo2]

being an european and having access to all sorts of new machinery I will second that, and add that the modern small capacity diesels are also quite powerful and an OK drive..

However, small turbo petrols have come a long way too, and consume less (unless you flog them around) so the difference is not so great..

One thing for sure, big diesels that go for a million miles without a glitch are a thing of the past... turbos are really small and need changing at 150K, and injectors are going all the time.. etc..

[24gerrard]

being an european and having access to all sorts of new machinery I will second that, and add that the modern small capacity diesels are also quite powerful and an OK drive..

However, small turbo petrols have come a long way too, and consume less (unless you flog them around) so the difference is not so great..

One thing for sure, big diesels that go for a million miles without a glitch are a thing of the past... turbos are really small and need changing at 150K, and injectors are going all the time.. etc..

I agree on the technical conclusions but this is for small diesel cars.
Taxi services these days use people carriers because of the demand for school and airport runs.
(Demands for cost effective taxis will increase.)
These are usualy bought second hand at reasonably high mileages.
They have little heavy wear when purchased having been mainly used by small blonde women on school runs.
A few dents usualy (thay cant drive them properly).
Those school bimbos that drive the Mr Blobby 4x4 Chelsea tractors (because the old man thinks their useless driving wont kill them or the kids in a tank) are usualy sold on to the local thugs for ram raids, or in our area to the local farmers to block up parking by the cash machines.

I do not see any sensible second hand markets in the future for small diesel (or petrol) cars or large blobby mobiles.
In three years fossil fuels will be to expensive as will taxation and the current cars are to small for taxi or yob use.
Electric is the only way to go forward.

[GBarclay]

Those of you doubting the abilities of an electric race car should cast a glance at Pikes Peak. There has been an electric car from Japan running the last few years, and that thing positively screams up the hill - and is not affected by altitude like the IC cars. The times they have set in recent years are easily comparable to IC cars on similar budgets, they are still a few minutes off the pace of the unlimited vehicles.

For the development that is in the car, I think they are on pace to easily outrun the IC cars in years to come, the IC cars having had near a 100 years of development, whilst the e-cars (race cars at least) have barely over a decade of development.


interesting to see that a couple of the Unser family are entered for the 2012 event, in e-cars (or hybrid e-cars).

Pikes Peak is one of the few venues that encourage development of unusual race machines, and while the e-cars and e-bikes might not be at the top of the time sheets, they are not embarrassing themselves either. It is a little odd to have a car race past you without the accompanying IC noise. The e-vehicles at Pikes Peak must run noise makers of some sort, so they are not exactly silent.