82 replies to this topic

[Magoo]

Particularly in the UK we need to do more to educate the general populace about what Engineers actually do, so that young people can appreciate what an interesting and exciting career path it is...

Thus increasing the supply and decreasing the demand even further.

[cheapracer]

Ah, I thought so! A mole, paid to sabotage the Chinese automotive business!

This is no joke, a few weeks ago they started making a very large interesting looking structure at work, obviously pylons with a an interesting strange revolving box structure on top.

I asked what's that?

"Oh it's for a Military Radar ...... "

Oops, me walks away - now I don't mention it, I don't walk into the Engineer's main room these days where they usually have blueprints laid out and no, I am not going to show pictures and I am mildly concerned about walking through the factory these days

[Engineguy]

I'm not sure I get the gist of this thread. It seems that some Engineers want "recognition" on par with Medical Doctors for what is almost exclusively a 4-year degree. Medical Doctors have 8 years in school followed by a 2-year internship in a teaching hospital... making $35,000 for 100 hours/week (under $7/hr). To be a Nurse Practitioner ("semi-doctor") requires a Masters or Doctorate degree, so six or more years there. And many medical professions have defined continuing education requirements to keep your job.

Are engineering courses hard? Yes; been there, done that, at a very tough school. But nothing special; law classes are hard too (for me, much harder). I haven't taken any medical classes, but it's no stretch to assume they're difficult... and as pointed out above, a lot more of them. People tend to underestimate other professions versus their own.

Are lives and money at stake if an Engineer designing a bridge doesn't do his or her job right? Yes. The same can be said for a bus driver... or a police officer.

Got a 4-year engineering degree? Congratulations. You should be proud, like a RN with a 4-year BS in nursing. Want to make more money? Get more education. Officially obtain all those buzzword certifications. Work cheap for a couple years (like a Doctor) to get 2000 hours on major CAD/FEA systems. Add a Harvard MBA. Don't want to go in the management direction? Get yourself a complimentary second degree in law, medical, or marketing. You'll have 8 to 10 years invested. Like a Medical Doctor.
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[Greg Locock]

Got a 4-year engineering degree? Congratulations. You should be proud, like a RN with a 4-year BS in nursing. Want to make more money? Get more education. Officially obtain all those buzzword certifications. Work cheap for a couple years (like a Doctor) to get 2000 hours on major CAD/FEA systems. Add a Harvard MBA. Don't want to go in the management direction? Get yourself a complimentary second degree in law, medical, or marketing. You'll have 8 to 10 years invested. Like a Medical Doctor.
.

I know it isn't what you are saying, but for many years the starting salary for an engineer with a masters or PhD in Australia was lower than that for a BEng. They've picked up lately.

To be honest I think MBAs are a bit on the nose now, unless they are real ones (at least one prestigious uni will give you one after a 6 week course, if you are the right sort of well heeled candidate).

[BRG]

We need to try to improve constantly, stagnation is not a good thing.

I agree, but setting up a closed, regulated profession may not be conducive to change in the future. Take lawyers (in the UK, at least) who are very 'protected' as a profession and still wear 18th century wigs and use Latin terms freely. The definition of stagnation perhaps? An open and unrestrictive environment is less likely to stagnate. IMO.

[Vanishing Point]

I'm not sure I get the gist of this thread. It seems that some Engineers want "recognition" on par with Medical Doctors for what is almost exclusively a 4-year degree. Medical Doctors have 8 years in school followed by a 2-year internship in a teaching hospital... making $35,000 for 100 hours/week (under $7/hr). To be a Nurse Practitioner ("semi-doctor") requires a Masters or Doctorate degree, so six or more years there. And many medical professions have defined continuing education requirements to keep your job.

Are engineering courses hard? Yes; been there, done that, at a very tough school. But nothing special; law classes are hard too (for me, much harder). I haven't taken any medical classes, but it's no stretch to assume they're difficult... and as pointed out above, a lot more of them. People tend to underestimate other professions versus their own.

Are lives and money at stake if an Engineer designing a bridge doesn't do his or her job right? Yes. The same can be said for a bus driver... or a police officer.

Got a 4-year engineering degree? Congratulations. You should be proud, like a RN with a 4-year BS in nursing. Want to make more money? Get more education. Officially obtain all those buzzword certifications. Work cheap for a couple years (like a Doctor) to get 2000 hours on major CAD/FEA systems. Add a Harvard MBA. Don't want to go in the management direction? Get yourself a complimentary second degree in law, medical, or marketing. You'll have 8 to 10 years invested. Like a Medical Doctor.
.

I think the comparison in the case of design engineers,saying that those involved in the mechanical engineering industry,at shop floor level,doing engineering fitting and machining aren't engineers of an equal level to them,is a bit like a molecular biologist saying that his medical knowledge is of a higher and more valuable level than that of a surgeon.The fact is just because an engineer works in a sector of the industry,where the learning curve doesn't always require or involve the same type of acedemic learning path,doesn't make the value of what is actually learn't any less.

Edited by Vanishing Point, 07 January 2012 - 01:25.

[Wolf]

Haha, this discussion of distinction (in English language, but not limited solely to it) is somewhat asmusing, and reminds me of an anecdote a friend told me how the best course of action in Italy if one's car breaks down is to address the mechanic as inginiure meaning engineer, otherwise he's most likely to take offence and do a botch job... Of course, it boils down to the matter of etiquette but there's always a grain of truth, in even wildest of jokes.;)

I think the new trend in EU is some sort of points based system, based on formal education. It might be a nifty method, but PE might be welcome addition. Speakig of my own country, there were three levels of education for professions in mechanical 'engineering' field- dedicated high school education, and 2½ and 4½ year university courses (ing. and dipl. ing. respectively), and with switch to bologna the latter two got (IIRC) split to 3 and 5 year courses resulting in tiles of baccalureate* and univ. mr. ing. mech (in the meantime there was one quasi-uni like course of 3 years introduced to complicate things even further, but those poor sods got screwed up the best- because their knowledge was almost on par with fully fledged dipl. ing., but had rank of mere ing). IMHO, there is no way of sorting the mess unless a merit based post-graduate evaluation of performance (open to any, regardless of whether they have expirience in the field instead of uni education).

* and this is grade noone ever does- because of virtually no chance of being employed, so basically our unis produce nothing but univ. mr. ing. candidates

Edited by Wolf, 07 January 2012 - 02:02.

[bigleagueslider]

I'm not sure I get the gist of this thread. It seems that some Engineers want "recognition" on par with Medical Doctors for what is almost exclusively a 4-year degree. Medical Doctors have 8 years in school followed by a 2-year internship in a teaching hospital... making $35,000 for 100 hours/week (under $7/hr). To be a Nurse Practitioner ("semi-doctor") requires a Masters or Doctorate degree, so six or more years there. And many medical professions have defined continuing education requirements to keep your job.

Are engineering courses hard? Yes; been there, done that, at a very tough school. But nothing special; law classes are hard too (for me, much harder). I haven't taken any medical classes, but it's no stretch to assume they're difficult... and as pointed out above, a lot more of them. People tend to underestimate other professions versus their own.

Are lives and money at stake if an Engineer designing a bridge doesn't do his or her job right? Yes. The same can be said for a bus driver... or a police officer.

Got a 4-year engineering degree? Congratulations. You should be proud, like a RN with a 4-year BS in nursing. Want to make more money? Get more education. Officially obtain all those buzzword certifications. Work cheap for a couple years (like a Doctor) to get 2000 hours on major CAD/FEA systems. Add a Harvard MBA. Don't want to go in the management direction? Get yourself a complimentary second degree in law, medical, or marketing. You'll have 8 to 10 years invested. Like a Medical Doctor.
.

Engineguy,

I would disagree with your comments about the differences between the academic rigors of engineering/science versus medicine or law. Sure, becoming an MD or JD takes more time and costs more in tuition. But achieving a BSME or BSEE is far more difficult than a BA in pre-med or pre-law. There were lots of pre-med and pre-law majors in some of my freshman university classes, and they weren't the sharpest students. The best students were always the math or physics majors.

As for university grads with student loan debt, almost every engineering grad I know had a good paying job offer before graduating.

[bigleagueslider]

I work as an engineer in the US aerospace industry. I've worked for both large and small companies over the years. I spent some time working for Boeing's Commercial Aircraft Division, and the president of that division at the time was an engineer by the name of Alan Mullally. I had the opportunity to have lunch with him one day, and he gave me the impression that he was a solid engineer. During his tenure at the helm of Boeing CAG, the division prospered. All of the decisions he made as BCAG president were the types of decisions that an engineer would make, rather than those an MBA would make. He pushed to make BCAG's products a better value for the buyers, rather than simply maximizing profit margins. Of course he is now the CEO of Ford, and Ford has likewise prospered under his leadership.

To make a long story short, it's better to have a good engineer running a business than it is to have a good businessman managing engineers. Forget the Harvard MBA or grad school. Get a job that makes the best use of your engineering skills, and switch jobs every couple of years to get lots of experience. And most importantly, work hard to make yourself indispensable to the company's success, just like Adrian Newey. Once you're in that position, you can name your salary, regardless of any title.

slider

[Engineguy]

... To make a long story short, it's better to have a good engineer running a business than it is to have a good businessman managing engineers. ...

Mulally received a Master's degree in Management (S.M.) as a Sloan Fellow from the MIT Sloan School of Management in 1982... but I know what you mean... Engineer first. Robert Stempel (Director of Engineering and later GM CEO) stopped in and chatted with me (1978) when I was setting up the CMM lab at Chevrolet Muncie for the new transaxle area. He was just on a tour, but he was curious and dug into the transaxle case datum callouts. Mind you this was at a time when most "engineers" I came across refused to learn GD&T ("I don't understand all those symbols"). He spoke perfect GD&T and he satisfied himself the dimensioning scheme was right before he let our anxious plant manager* drag him out to keep him on schedule. I was amazed a guy at that level would get so into such details instead of the usual smile-handshake-keepupthegoodwork. Like Mulally, he was an Engineer for many years before getting an MBA. I agree, a good thing for a manufacturing business to have an engineer at the helm.

* Another neat guy, and another "Engineer first", a decade later, after he had retired, he made the introduction that got my metrology services business capitalized. Thanks Claude.

[Magoo]

To make a long story short, it's better to have a good engineer running a business than it is to have a good businessman managing engineers.

I disagree. I think the weasel word here is "good." Instead, let's talk about typical engineers vs. typical businessmen. Select ten engineers at random and the chances are poor that even one of them will exhibit any management or leadership skills. (That's not to say this cannot be changed with some training and personal resolve, but that's another subject.) Meanwhile, most any "businessman" can operate most any business with basic competence. That's what they do.

Meanwhile, what do we mean by "good engineer"? If we take the best engineer in the department and make him manager, we may well have picked the worst man in the department for the job, and also created the unhappiest man in the department. By "good engineer," I think you mean "good engineer who also happens to have real business skills."

[Magoo]

I'm not sure I get the gist of this thread. It seems that some Engineers want "recognition" on par with Medical Doctors for what is almost exclusively a 4-year degree.

I've had a similar feeling. With the possible exception of medicine, no college degree is a money-making license. It's an entry pass at best -- it might get you in the door to show what you can really do. You still need to know how to do something -- and it's helpful to make it something that very few other people can do, and that you can do better than most anyone else.

Rambling now... Some young people seem to wander into the job market with this attitude: "I have this umm, piece of paper that says I know how to do something, but I'm not quite sure what it is. Can you give me a job and some money and help me decide what to do with my life?"

In the current soft economy this has become a sort of meme... young people whining, "I did everything the system instructed me to do. I took out all these student loans and got this college degree. I followed all the rules. So where is the comfortable middle-class lifestyle I was promised? How come I can't get a decent job and move out of my parents' basement?" This drives me nuts -- it's only a slight rewording of "The world owes me a living." Also, you often get the feeling that maybe the kid is not facing up to his entire situation... like the fact that the degree is in Tibetan drum music, and that neck tattoos and ear hoops might also factor into his employment prospects. To me, we currently have a whole cycle of young people we have badly let down by not preparing them for the real world.

[Tony Matthews]

Rambling now... Some young people seem to wander into the job market with this attitude: "I have this umm, piece of paper that says I know how to do something, but I'm not quite sure what it is. Can you give me a job and some money and help me decide what to do with my life?"

Etc.

The USA too? Frightening...

[24gerrard]

My nephew wanted to be a pilot.
He had nine A levels and applied for an advertised pilot entry for BA.
He came 18th in the induction course and they took the first 12 out of thousands.

He asked me how I started flying.
I told him I used to go to the local airfield every weekend and offer to clean planes and do odd jobs.
I generaly made myself a nuisance.
I had a PPL just after my 16th birthday and it cost me practicaly nothing.

My nephew gave up and went into retail in a model shop.
It is the same with engineers today. No longer the dedication because it is easier to put tins on shelves for money.
I blame the 'American Dream' and all the bad values from it that we are forced to live under.

[cheapracer]

The USA too? Frightening...

Add Australia - in fact Oz may have even led it with the "Smart Country" policies circa mid 80's - suddenly everyone had to have certification (or multiple qualifications) in one way or another to get a job and all companies had to spend something like 5% of turnover on staff training of some kind.

China was very pleased with the outcome.

[cheapracer]

I blame the 'American Dream' and all the bad values from it that we are forced to live under.

I thought it was the English who taught the Japanese, the Indians and Hong Kong how to make stuff properly and do commerce?

[24gerrard]

I thought it was the English who taught the Japanese, the Indians and Hong Kong how to make stuff properly and do commerce?

Hahaha sorry your right cheapy, we are all to blame for the sad state of the world.
The only engineers I see doing realy well are electrical engineers.

[carlt]

The world is changing rapidly.

The government wants all nurses to be graduates in the future, and to spend less time nursing patients; i

To paraphrase you - "In the future the government wants all nurses to spend less time nursing patients, oh yes , and they will need to get a degree at university to ' not nurse ' "

That about sums up the ridiculousness of modern bureaucracy for bureaucracies sake [ job creation for pen pushers ! ]

Edited by carlt, 07 January 2012 - 22:25.

[Engineguy]

... I blame the 'American Dream' and all the bad values from it that we are forced to live under.

So it's official now. You blame EVERYHING on Americans. That gets old.
.

[24gerrard]

So it's official now. You blame EVERYHING on Americans. That gets old.
.

Not on Americans but on the total lack of fundamental values that your social and economic systems display to the rest of the world.
Your country made a huge effort to control the world after WW2 so as to replace Britain as world leader.
You have f%^$£d it up big time.

[carlt]

I blame the 'American Dream' and all the bad values from it that we are forced to live under.

The 'American Dream' was historically to 'head West' initially by boat across the Atlantic then by wagon across America
'The Dream' was to leave Europe and all its repressive regimes and grinding poverty

'The Dream' is still the same today , to create/enable a freer society , unfortunately it became a 'religion' and as with most religions became perverted by the greedy and power craving megalomaniacs for their own means/gain

[jatwarks]

To paraphrase you - "In the future the government wants all nurses to spend less time nursing patients, oh yes , and they will need to get a degree at university to ' not nurse ' "

That about sums up the ridiculousness of modern bureaucracy for bureaucracies sake [ job creation for pen pushers ! ]

The "Nurse" becomes a manager of "Patient Carers". Only the nurse is trained comprehensively, and is consulted by patient carers when necessary.

It's mostly just a title change. "Nursing", as we have come to know it historically, will be the job of patient carers. "Graduate Nurses" will have the expertise to advise them.

The traditional nurse is percieved to be overqualified for wiping bums and emptying bed pans.

During the course of this discussion I have decided that making "Engineer" a protected profession is unnecessary. Thank you all for your contributions.

[carlt]

The "Nurse" becomes a manager of "Patient Carers". Only the nurse is trained comprehensively, and is consulted by patient carers when necessary.

It's mostly just a title change. "Nursing", as we have come to know it historically, will be the job of patient carers. "Graduate Nurses" will have the expertise to advise them.

The traditional nurse is percieved to be overqualified for wiping bums and emptying bed pans.

During the course of this discussion I have decided that making "Engineer" a protected profession is unnecessary. Thank you all for your contributions.

I do understand !
I just find it highly amusing how the bureaucrats create complexities to justify their 'profession'

vast armies of people sitting behind desks rearranging and 'fixing?' how things are run just to justify their jobs

[pugfan]

I have an electrical/electronic engineering degree whilst a mate I studied with dropped out and became a refridgeration electrician who works on new installs.

He certainly earned a lot more than me during his training and he probably earns what I do but with a lot more hours.

As I do, he makes design decisions on a daily basis according to guidelines, regulatory frameworks, experience etc.

I'm one of those who finds the over use of the term engineer in the UK annoying but I can equally appreciate the difference between technician and engineer can be small.

Edited by pugfan, 18 January 2012 - 02:57.

[carlt]

carlt,

What some posters describe as the "American Dream" existed long before the USA had much economic or social influence on the world. The dream of an individual being free to work hard, achieve financial prosperity, and then enjoy the fruits of their labors without excessive government taxation and regulation, is something citizens the world over desire. The reason it's called the American Dream is because during the 19th and 20th centuries, the American economy was the best example of how well this concept works. But it was not limited to the US by any means.

While 24gerrard might complain about what he sees as the negative influences the US has had on the world, I would point out that the US has suffered greatly in the past 2 decades from European influences. Sadly, in the 21st century United States, the American Dream is dying rapidly due to our federal government embracing the failed collectivist/socialist policies and crony capitalism of old Europe. You know the American Dream is dead when the US has the highest business tax rates in the industrialized world.

Of course, the US is still a good place to work as an engineer for the time being.

slider

I'm well aware of what the version of "the american dream' is that has been used on this topic and others
I was only adding a historic perspective on where the saying originated from and how it has been corrupted into a negative connotation

I totally disagree with you on the second part of your post

Unfettered /un- regulated capitalism is the biggest cause of our modern economic woes - it gives too much power to those with No morals , global Banking and Multinational Corporations seem to attract those with no morals they are Sociopaths - greed and power is their game , 'F@ck the rest of the world' is their motto .

watch this documentary-[get the DVD or download it online - it is a real eye opener ! ]

http://www.sonyclassics.com/insidejob/
it is unbelievable the lies and obfuscations of the banking world ,
they have restructured the economic education system of the USA for their own means

The most amazing/funny moment is when the interviewer is speaking with an economics professor about any ethical conflicts regarding his financial position in the banking/regulatory market [ the professor sees no conflict]
then the interviewer makes a comparison with the medical profession and a doctor having the same financial links with a major drugs company [ there ensues a fantastic fish mouthing event ]
but as with all this - not a single apology - [sociopaths don't perceive any wrongdoing ]

watch the interview with the Chinese minister regarding the 15 million unemployed caused by the Bankers/Regulators sociopathic behavior

Carl [ sorry for the thread derailment - don't want to be accused of internet forumiopathic behavior :D ]

[desmo]

Please discuss politics in the Paddock Club! I certainly do

[cheapracer]

Desmo? Did you work for Lehman Brothers?

Interesting watch, thanks carlt.

[carlt]

Please discuss politics in the Paddock Club! I certainly do

As were not discussing politics I assume it's ok to continue this debate ?

[Engineguy]

Carlt,

I'm going to avoid furthering political discussion... but have to point out that any debate using a Hollywood movie as support is over before it starts. Movie making, even if they resort to claiming it to be a documentary, is not unbiased journalism (does that exist anyway?). Too many people think a two-hour white hat/black hat "education" at the theater makes them an expert in a complex industry or human behavior.

The movie you linked may or may not have an element of truth. But you've been had. It is from a giant multinational corporation with the sole purpose of putting asses in the (home or public) theater seats to make them money. And nothing sells quite like class warfare... and Hollywood is pre-disposed toward depicting succesful people as the evil rich as they themselves hypocritically buzz around in their Bentleys, Maybachs and Ferarris. Hollywood's mission is to entertain you by getting you to buy in to a fantasy... in hopes you'll run right out and convince others to part with their money to do the same. Period. If the work happens to fit with their beliefs, and yours, all the better for them.

The giant multinational corporation, the Hollywood community (and their coc' suppliers) thank you for your promotion of their product.

[cheapracer]

I'm going to avoid furthering political discussion... but have to point out that any debate using a Hollywood movie as support is over before it starts. Movie making, even if they resort to claiming it to be a documentary...

I couldn't agree more and I have seen it from this very end living in the evil, oppressed, murdering Commo bastards country according to several articles and doco's and further lay the recession's blame squarely at the greed of the common man who don't have guns pointed at their heads when they accept ridiculous loans...

I do question though when the management teams of the very companies who irresponsibly give out those ridiculous loans sending their institutions broke and then get Government bailouts also get large chunks of those bailout funds as bonuses, I admit to being a little confused about that part as well as why a lot of the same peri-phial "experts" are still offering advice on the running of the economies .... there really is something a little strange going on but I am happy to be educated otherwise.

[carlt]

Carlt,

I'm going to avoid furthering political discussion... but have to point out that any debate using a Hollywood movie as support is over before it starts. Movie making, even if they resort to claiming it to be a documentary, is not unbiased journalism (does that exist anyway?). Too many people think a two-hour white hat/black hat "education" at the theater makes them an expert in a complex industry or human behavior.

The movie you linked may or may not have an element of truth. But you've been had. It is from a giant multinational corporation with the sole purpose of putting asses in the (home or public) theater seats to make them money. And nothing sells quite like class warfare... and Hollywood is pre-disposed toward depicting succesful people as the evil rich as they themselves hypocritically buzz around in their Bentleys, Maybachs and Ferarris. Hollywood's mission is to entertain you by getting you to buy in to a fantasy... in hopes you'll run right out and convince others to part with their money to do the same. Period. If the work happens to fit with their beliefs, and yours, all the better for them.

The giant multinational corporation, the Hollywood community (and their coc' suppliers) thank you for your promotion of their product.

Have you watched it ? [ don't bother with the trailer - get the real thing online or dvd ] DOWNLOAD IT FOR FREE - no parting with money

DONT bury your head in the sand - it is nothing to do with class warfare ! It is about the global financial crisis that began in 2008 , still ongoing , how the major banks , thier supposed regulators , the mortgage companies , insurance companies etc all knowingly fabricated an unsustainable trading network , creating vast profits , ultimately at OUR expense [ three times over when you consider the taxpayers bailed them out !]
The people responsible are still in charge - there has been no substantial changes made [ they are too powerful and control ALL the political and economic institutions that Could effect change ]

it is presenting facts

ok there is very little defense from the major banks and their regulatory houses - but they were asked to comment/interview but declined

It is primarily interview based

The global financial crisis that is still ongoing was summerised as :

'A giant , multi-trillion dollar, global Ponzi scheme , run by the major banks "

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Ponzi_scheme

we all are victims of their illegal dealings !

Edited by carlt, 19 January 2012 - 22:11.

[CSquared]

Carlt,

I'm going to avoid furthering political discussion... but have to point out that any debate using a Hollywood movie as support is over before it starts. Movie making, even if they resort to claiming it to be a documentary, is not unbiased journalism (does that exist anyway?). Too many people think a two-hour white hat/black hat "education" at the theater makes them an expert in a complex industry or human behavior.

The movie you linked may or may not have an element of truth. But you've been had. It is from a giant multinational corporation with the sole purpose of putting asses in the (home or public) theater seats to make them money. And nothing sells quite like class warfare... and Hollywood is pre-disposed toward depicting succesful people as the evil rich as they themselves hypocritically buzz around in their Bentleys, Maybachs and Ferarris. Hollywood's mission is to entertain you by getting you to buy in to a fantasy... in hopes you'll run right out and convince others to part with their money to do the same. Period. If the work happens to fit with their beliefs, and yours, all the better for them.

The giant multinational corporation, the Hollywood community (and their coc' suppliers) thank you for your promotion of their product.

Ad hominem arguments. You might be 100% right about Hollywood and the movie's producers, but that has nothing to do with the information presented in the movie.

[desmo]

As were not discussing politics I assume it's ok to continue this debate ?

No. Don't assume any such thing. Discussing banking and taxes is politics as far as I am concerned. Discuss such topics in the Paddock Club or don't discuss them at all here. I'll delete any posts with more than incidental political content from here on out.