6 replies to this topic

[IndyIan]

I don't know how many of you bothered to read all of frans's post about schumacher's wins but at the bottom he talked about a system that would allow only the back brakes to be used to stop wheel spin out of slow corners. Some posters immediatly thought that this would be useless and/or nearly impossible to do.
In motocross this method has been used for a while by some, especially on the 500's. (most motor cycles have seperate front and rear brake systems)
I have never heard of this being used in road racing though.
Is there a rule againist changing the brake balance of a F1 car? I would think back when there was no refueling adjusting the brake balance would be very neccessay.

Also to prove or disprove frans's theory that this might be used does anyone recall schumacher having rear brake problems in Monaco? I think Monaco would be where this technique would be used the most so the brakes might over heat or wear out.

[Keith Sawatsky]

It is very simple to do...in fact the basis that forms all existing traction control and stability control systems in street cars will perform this function.

Street cars even have warning lights when the system overheats due to extreme continual useage.

[This message has been edited by Keith Sawatsky (edited 08-24-1999).]

[DangerMouse]

My road car applies the rear brakes to stop the rear wheels spinning, not exactly new or impossible!

I think Frans was wrong about his assumptions, however I have made a similar statement recently but regarding a different system.
The Ferrari since 96 has been uncannily stable under heavy braking, if you remember rightly it even managed to out-brake a Prost on three wheels in the wet with absolutly no twitching after Schumi collided with Coulthard, the two races after Schimi's Silverstone crash the car looked pretty twichy under braking for the first time in a long time - I reckon Ferrari were using an electronic brake balance system which learns the track and only applies the right amount of rear brake per given corner, this system failed and caused Schumis crash - the FIA investigated and the system was removed, it's not the first time the FIA have tried to cover up illigalities rather than ban the team in question in order to save the championship (94/95 - Benetton Traction control, Launch control, tampered with fuel rigs and 97 Legalising the undoubtably illigal throttle control system discovered on Schumachers Ferrari after his "masterful" wet Monaco performance.)

Why has it gone so quiet regarding what went wrong with Schumi's car at Silverstone? nothing from Ferrari or the Press or the FIA to inform us of what went wrong, other than Brembo claiming their components were not at fault (dismissing Ferrari's story about the bleed nipple.)

[PDA]

DM - read it again. the Brembo press release stated that the accident was not caused by the failure of any component. It is generally agreed that the problem was a bleed nipple that had been insufficiently tightened and unscrewed itself i.e. not an equipment component failure.

The fluid leak because of the untightened nipple was fully reported in the press releases at the time, its just that some people just refused to a) read them properly and b0 believe them.

Adjustable rear brakes. F1 cars have two seperate hydraulic systems, and it is easy to have a balance bar to adjust the pressure that is applied by each. It must be a hand adjustment in accordance with the F1 technical rules.

The "traction control" braking systems are not allowed. The last to be publically known to be used was that of the Maclaren (the so called "fiddle" brake, which allowed the driver to apply the rear brake on one side to help exit from corners. I believe that the reasons the stewards in Brazil gave for banning it was that it contributed to the steering of the car, and the car may only be steered by the wheel.

[DangerMouse]

PDA I was not suggesting Ferrari have a Traction control system modulated by the brakes I was just expanding on what Keith had said, and suggesting that they have automatic brake balance system - which is altogether different.

Secondly I can't believe any F1 team could make a mistake as fundamental as not tightening a bleed nipple sufficiently, road cars go in for services thousands of times everyday, when is the last time you heard of a bleed nipple being insufficiently tightened? it's not something that would be overlooked, this allied with Eddies struggle with his brakes for two races after Silverstone seems to me that Ferrari changed something with the brakes, why? they had outstanding stopping power and stability, if it was mearly Human error then the brake system would have been left alone, Eddie's struggle clearly proves something had changed with the previously top notch brakes. So what has changed and why?

Ferrari's only official press release on the incident was...
"Following the accident of Michael Schumacher at the British Grand Prix, Ferrari are conducting a full and urgent investigation.

What has been established so far, is that the accident was caused by a sudden loss of pressure in the rear brake circuit. This was due to the loosening of a brake
bleed nipple (a loose screw) on the left rear calliper. The reason for this loosening of the nipple has not yet been established.

This component had been checked as part of the Saturday evening race preparation and there had been no subsequent servicing of that part. The data shows no
problem either in the warm up or indeed in the braking manoeuvres for the first half lap of the race.

Ferrari will continue to try to establish the reasons for this failure. "


This is what led Brembo to make their statement, Ferrari claimed the component (bleed nipple) had been checked as part of the Saturday race prep so this rules human error out, if the bleed nipple came loose despite being tighten correctly then this is a Brembo component failure of which Brembo publicly denied and Ferrari have since failed to respond to.


[This message has been edited by DangerMouse (edited 08-25-1999).]

[Christiaan]

actually, the Macs had a similar system some time ago. They had a 3rd brake pedal where the clutch would normaly be and this pedal would engage the rear brakes only.

Source www.gtf1.com

[PDA]

Christiaan - The mac system was the one to which I was referring. I believe that earlier, Ferrari had presented a more automatic "differential braking" system to the FIA technical commission, and had been refused permission to use it, so it was never fitted.

FIA rules Article 11 are quite specific in not allowing automatic (electronic) brake balance modulation.