9 replies to this topic

[arvin]

Hello. I was wondering if anyone could give me a rundown on how these two different engines compare. I know they differ in type (V-10 normally-aspirated vs. V-8 turbo charged) and size, but how about materials, engine performance specs and the like?

What happens when an F1 car goes a CART car at an banked oval like Indy? What happens when the same two cars go to Spa?

[Limey]

See:- http://www.atlasf1.c...TML/006121.html
member Sho for performance comparison at a road course. At Spa, the F1 car would be superior. Unless the F1 was set up for oval racing, the CART car would be superior on an oval.

CART 700 - 800, F1 - 800 to 900 bhp
CART 17000 RPM, F1 19000 to 20000 rpm
CART 2.65 L, F1 3.0 L
The F1 engine would have more exotic materials but it is unlikely that anyone besides the manufacturer would have that information. The above specs are an estimate except for the capacity.

F1 cars are about 150 lb lighter than CART cars, so accelerate and brake better. F1 cars also have carbon fibre brakes.

[Yelnats]

Lime, Sounds OK except for the Weight. I believe the F1 weight limits include the driver whereas the CART is for the chassis alone. This increases the difference to about 300 lbs. Please correct me but this is what was going on a few years ago.

[PDA]

Weight: F1 600 kilos ( 1350 lb approx.) with driver and no fuel,
CART : 1525 lb on superspeedways, and 1550 on short ovals and raod courses

CART must use ferrous metal valve springs, connecting rods, flywheels, steel brake disks. Throttle system must be a wired system (no electronic "fly by wire"3D mapping allowed). variable valve timing not allowed. inlet and exhaust manifolds must be of constant length. I don't thnk it is compulsary, but CART cars usually have steel suspension components whereas F1 usually has carbon fibre composite materials.
There is even a price ceiling on engines.

CART uses Alcohol fuel, whereas F1 uses gasoline.

In CART there is even less design freedom for the designer compared to F1, as many of the components are tightly specified by the rules (e.g. wing size and characteristics, venturi tunnel size, etc.

BTW, I reckon all of the CART engines produce well north of 800 hp these days.

[Yelnats]

So sitting on the track with driver, no fuel a CART car weighs about 1700 lb (1550 + 150 lb for the driver), compared to a F1 weight of 1330 lb (600kg). This produces 1.84 lbs per HP for a CART car (925 HP) to 1.61 lbs per HP for the F1 car (825 hp. This differential along with the lower frontal area of and F1 car with it's narrow track gives superior acceleration and equivalent top speed for the F1 car.

[Limey]

Yelnats, you are right about the weight difference, I forgot about F1 using car + driver. I also agree about an F1 car having superior acceleration. As to top speed, I am assuming that an F1 car is designed around the fact that the fastest speed it would need to attain would be about 200 mph so the car's aerodynamics / downforce would reflect this. A CART car on an oval is designed for a top speed of 240 - 250 mph (before the Hanford device). Thus the aerodynamics on an F1 car may be a hindrance above 200 mph and limit its capability considering its superior power /weight ratio. Although it is not strictly relevent to this post, many years ago Road & Track did a comparison test between a NASCAR Winston Cup car and a Porsche 962. The WC car was marginally faster as the top speed of the Porsche was hindered by the aerodynamics /downforce that enabled it to be superior for the races it was designed and built for. If you are interested, I can look up the issue and any other info on this comparison.

[Art]

A few years ago a comparison was made at Monaco. It was figured the Cart car would be three plus seconds a lap slower due to turbo lag.

Art NX3L

[Yelnats]

Limey, Actually F1 cars have been exceeding 210 mph for 15 years and lately they have exceed 230 mph with some setups at Hockenhiem. The recent reduction in frontal areas with the narrower chassis has resulted in much better air penetration. They would have little trouble exceeding 240 mph if setup for a high speed oval

Yes, I was surprised at first by the success of the NASCAR but as you mentioned, logic tells us that down force has big drag penalties. But compared with with closed wheel vehicles like NASAR or LeMans cars, both the CART and F1 cars have the aerodynamics of a brick!

As over half of a CART and F1 cars drag is from the tires chassis streamlinig has relativly little effect on speed. (tire drag exceed 70% in the sixties with the slim chassis in use then). An F1 car now has lower drag than a CART due to less frontal area which is all that counts with such unstreamlined shapes as open wheeled vehicles.

[This message has been edited by Yelnats (edited 03-05-2000).]

[Jhope]

if anyone wants a comparison btwn the both series, there is a very serious bid to bring the CART series to Montreal on the present Formula one Circuit. The only hitch, Bernies Approval! Piece of donkey Sh!t

[Yelnats]

Jhope, The only hope that we have of a Montreal CART race is if Bernie takes the threats from the European Union seriously and decides to remove some of his restictions to track access that so limit competiton in this field. Not bloody likley though!