11 replies to this topic

[dije]

I think about 1 1/2 year ago, when they banned Beryllium to be used in the engines, there were some rumours here on the board that some teams (first of all Ferrari) might use 12V engines again. The argument was something like that because of the weight increase due to heavier materials they might be more efficient.

I also read on another thread these days, that todays engines cannot rev much higher without loosing torque due to the problem of filling the cylinder with gas in time without using any kind of supercharging. Wouldn't it be a logical consequence to use 12Vs with smaller pistons (travelling a smaller way) to gain more revs?

On the other hand someone (sorry forgot the name) wrote that 12Vs are banned. Is that right? I never heard anything about that, the 10Vs were at the moment just more efficient in drivabillity, fuel consumption, etc.

So does anybody know if there's something gonna happen there. It should favour Ferrari if it's gonna go that way since they should have a lot of experience in this area.


DiJe

[BRG]

I am afraid not, DiJe. the powers that be have agreed that all F1 engines will be 10 cylinder for the time being.

I think it was becuase Ferrari and Honda were supposed to be considering reintroducing 12 cylinder motors and it was thought this could lead to a big cost increase for everyone, so the rules were changed to ban anything except 10 cyls.

Now I think that is a shame, because in the past we have had different engine layouts and it has added a lot of interest, without it ever being apparent that one was better than another. The advantages of a V10 in some respects (for instance it is smaller with less mechanical parts to absorb power) are countered by the V12's advantages (eg higher rev capabilities).

But we aren't going to get to find out which is best....

------------------
BRG

"all the time, maximum attack"

[sunil]

They will be sticking to V10's for next 7 years

[HK]

A ban on V12s is not F1...bad decision

[AD]

The reason for this is that it will cut down on budgets a bit. This was becuase Toyota was rumored to be planing about testing a V8, a V10, and a V12!!!

[CVAndrw]

Something I can't quite track down: the FIA technical regs still allow a maximum of 12 cylinders; I assume restricting engines to 10 is part of the Concorde Agreement, which I guess we mere mortals are not allowed to view. But does the revised Concorde state that engines must be V10's, period, or is it a maximum of 10 cylinders? Otherwise, given the vibration problems plaguing everyone (which I assume is an inherent flaw of these V10 abominations, only dampened out somewhat by revving them to infinity and beyond) you'd think the time would be right for reintroducing a 90 degree V8.

Nah...too logical.

[davo]

CVAndrw
An inline five cylinder has very little "vibration" but a lot of "rock". 10 cylinders - 2 linked inline fives can be made so that the rock of each bank cancels out. More revs only makes more problems in terms of balance.

An engineering text on the subject "dynamics of machines" would do the topic justice if you had the intellectual stamina. I did once...
...but not now.

10s and 12s can both be workable. V6s can be a vibration catastrophy as Honda found out early on. The story (not sure if its true) is one of the early F1 team drivers was sure something had broken on the engine the first time he drove it and then had to be reassured that that level of vibration was really normal.

[This message has been edited by davo (edited 02-21-2000).]

[Art]

It seems like teams want to get into F1 but once they are there and find the real cost they can't handel it. Just like in Cart racing the wanabees want the top teams degraded to there level. If they can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen. F1 is the ultimate racing series let the engineers have a free hand.

Art NX3L

[POA]

RUMOR HAS IT THAT SEVERAL MANUFACTURERS HAVE RECENTLY BENCH TESTED A V12 [TOYOTA / HONDA ETC] BUT WITH THE CURRENT V10 FORMAT LOOKING SET TO CONTINUE FOR THE NEAR FUTURE LOOKS LIKE A TRIP TO THE GOODWOOD FESTIVAL FOR A FILL OF A V12 IS IN ORDER.

IF F1 IS TRYING TO CURB COSTS BY RESTRICTING THE NO OF CYLINDERS WHY PEG IT AT 10??, WHY NOT 8 OR 12, THESE ARE MULTIPLES THAT ARE USED IN ROAD CARS, DEVELOPMENT WOULD BLEED BACK AND HELP TO PRODUCE BETTER ENGINES FOR US. I SEEM TO REMEMBER TURBO'S GETTING VERY POPULAR AFTER F1 STARTED PLAYING WITH THEM.

AND JUST AS A THAUGHT, HAS F1 EVER BEEN COST EFFECTIVE?.

[Ray Bell]

The Viper, however, has showed that extending an existing V8 to a V10 is a reasonable exercise.
BTW, Henry Ford's experimental div built a five-cyl around 1940 that gave better power than anything else in that size - but they gave up (I read once) because they couldn't figure how to balance it.

[davo]

With thanks to MN for the historical detail - with your prompt I am now fairly confident of my recollect and that you do have the drivers/team correct.

[Billy Gunn]

Weren't the Arrows engine division rumoured to be the first working on a V12 - seems like they are still around in the background, as the Supertec they have this year is the one left over from BAR's Honda deal. Could they be working on a V12 for next year? I couldn't see TW agreeing to a Concorde agreement if his team were working on a V12! The only way to get more revs (20,000+) would be to go to a V12 and as I've pointed out elsewhere, the narrow track cars seem to like a long wheelbase; don't forget the reason the V10 came about (narrower than a V8, shorter than a V12) was to satisfy the car designers requirement for best package size to suit the aerodynamics, which at the time was short wheelbase. The 10 does balance quite well but as revs increase it is necessary to use an out of balance factor and unnatural firing order to overcome torsional vibration. The TV aspect of a 10 is worse than an 8 but better than a 12, this may be why the Judd designed Yamaha had a rear drive to the camgear a feature of the company as I seem to remember that their 8's used this design as well (EV,KV, and the 10 cyl GV as well - the latter is currently being used in sportscar racing)
Forget V8's they just have not got the ability to rev (they would struggle to make 15,000), 10's have reached their Nadir at about 18,000 so the only avenue left is a 12, but expect to see (if they ever see the light of a race track!) whacky power take off points to overcome TV issues. Like a central gear point (2 x V6's)driving a asymetric power shaft - this would help to lower C of G by the engine not being constrained by the clutch basket.

Themoreyouthinkthemoreithurts

Billy G