15 replies to this topic

[Paste]

I remember hearing things about this back in the days of driver aids, but I don't know if anything ever came of it. I'm pretty sure it's banned as well. Can anyone help me out??

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AtlasF1 Test Time Competition

[PDA]

4 whhel steering is not allowed. You can download a copy of the F1 tech regs from www.fia.com, it only takes a few seconds.

[slc]

Hmmmm...how come I kinda remember something like that being considered in the 70's. I might be way off...

[BRG]

I'm sure someone thought about it, but whether it would give any advantage is questionable. I would think the extra weight would be a problem.

Some Japanese manufacturers tried it a few years ago and there was some PR hype in the papers that this was the next big thing but it soon seems to have disappeared again.

In fact Mitsubishi had 4 wheel steering on the Galant VR4 which they used for rallying. But they very quickly disconnected the 4WS as none of the drivers liked it, it wasn't any quicker and it was prone to rather scary breakages

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BRG

"all the time, maximum attack"

[davo]

I have a strong recollection of one MS in a Bennetton having 4WS, with the program being sellectable via a dash switch with several different being available at any one time. Interestingly one of these modes was always 2WS, and while 4WS may have been quicker - qualifying and potential passing laps. It was much harder to drive.

Can anyone confirm this, or perhaps even shed some light on this.

Within Australian touring car racing the all conquering Nissan GTR was run by one of the most technically sharp teams around. They immediately disconnected the 4WS and after about a season lost the variable torque bias 4WD - replacing it with constant torque bias 4WD.

It would be interesting to see if any F1 teams would use 4WS if it was allowed again.

[Art]

Wasn't there a stink a couple ov years ago. About McLarens extra brake pedal creating a FWS ov some sort?

Art NX3L

[John Oliver]

Benetton did run 4WS in 1993, the year of the active suspension, traction control, ABS, fully automatic transmission, etc., etc., driver aids. (Incidentally, as a geek engineer, I think those cars were the most technically interesting I've seen, but I've only been following F1 since '88). I don't know anything much about what control strategies it might have used.

As for the McLaren "stink" of a couple of years ago, I think their "fiddle brake" pedal was banned on the grounds that it used the rear wheels to steer the car, but the effect was somewhat different. True 4WS (like the '93 Benetton and some production cars mentioned above) actually steers the rear wheels; the McLaren fiddle brake was used to apply a yaw torque to the car by braking only one wheel. This idea is very similar to the way that production stability control systems (ESP, Stabilitrak, DSC, etc.) work, except that they do it automatically based on vehicle dynamics feedback, while the McLarens were manually activated by the extra brake pedal to try to circumvent the ban on electronic driver aids.

[Paste]

Thanks all. I was pretty sure that Benetton ran it in 1993, but I wasn't totally sure.

[PDA]

JO - you are right in saying that the Mac fiddle brake was banned on the grounds that it effectively steered the rear wheels. personally, I disagree with that opinion (as did Charley Whiting, the FIA technical delegate). Applying that thinking would ban all limited slip differentials because they effect the yaw of the car and could therefore be said to be contributing to steering via the rear wheels.

I think that the main purpose of the fiddle brake was to act as a sort of manually operated traction control device, whereby the slippage of the inside wheel was very effectively managed by brake application. Since then, all of the major manufacturers have developed complex "3D" engine mapping systems which effectively act as traction control systems. The "electronic" differentials also contribute to the same effect IMO, although the two systems are not supposed to be linked.

[Laphroaig]

A completely different type of '4' wheel steering is done by the drivers themselves, take a look at the cars bumping across the Hockenheim chicanes for example, they try to hit the curbs in a fashion that causes the inside-rear wheel to lift up off the ground as far as possible, when power is applied it causes the outside (ground touching wheel) to push the car around the corner. McLaren and Ferrari tried (succeded?) is simulating this behavior by shifting the rear-wheel brake balance from left to right, so you don't need the curbs anymore...
This is one 'trick' a driver really learns in his carting years

[Yelnats]

Laphroaig, An interesting technique and it must be pretty tricky in a Cart with about 1 inch clearance between you butt and the curb! You probably speak with a high pitched voice after doing that for a few years! ];->

[tak]

Race drivers typically don't like 4WS because it confuses the 'feel' of the car. Essentially, 4WS will either increase or decrease oversteer (depends on algorithm used), but the driver has a hard time feeling what is coming from the contact patches and what is coming from the steering system.

[Falcadore]

Didn't the Vatanen/Unser Peugeot 405 hillclimb specials of 'Climb Dance' fame from late 80's have 4WS?

[Yelnats]

All Wheel steering (AWS) enjoys the same reputation in F1 that all wheel steering AWD has. Many theoretical advantages with no results to show for it. A bit of a technological dead end!

F1 drivers haven't found any advantages from AWS/AWD because their level of skills they can extract whatever cornering forces are available from four wheels without interferences from variable inputs from these souces.

It's interesting that F1 drivers found traction control advantageous along with active suspension but AWD/AWS proved to be a disadvantage.

[Blackhawk]

Paste, in 1975 Tyrell had a 6 wheeled car with 4 front wheels. Thats about as close as it gets. Williams also had a 6 wheeler on development in the mid 80's I think with 4 backwheels but it was never raced. You can see this at Williams museum I think.

[BRG]

I don’t think we can count the Tyrell - four wheel steering, yes, but all wheel steering, no!

The only motorsport application - that I am aware of, anyway - for all wheel steering (AWS) is the Andros Trophy, the French ice-racing series. The cars are 4WD and use quite an extreme form of AWS to help pitch them into the huge sideways power slides that are needed on ice. It works very well, although the speeds are comparatively low. But otherwise AWS seems to be a real blind alley.

But four wheel drive has come on a huge amount since F1’s flirtation with it in the late 1960s. Due to Audi’s introduction of a modified Ferguson Formula 4WD system into rallying in 1981, there has been so much development that it would now be a real advantage for F1. The ultimate modern World Rally Car setup uses programmeable electronic differentials (front, centre and rear) which allows the characteristics, such a front-rear power split and the amount of slip in each differential to be altered whilst the car is moving.

Applied to a F1 car (if it were allowed, which it definitely isn’t) it would probably cut as much as 10% off lap times depending on the circuit and the degree of traction needed. The success of the Opel Calibra in the DTM and ITC of a couple of years ago showed what could be achieved. I am sure that F1 drivers would take to it very quickly if given the chance!


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BRG

"all the time, maximum attack"