6 replies to this topic

[Alex]

That engine certainly has got bags of power. Did you notice from in car footage of Barrichello how fast the Jordan of HHF accelerates out of corners? Now everybody says that the engine is a little heavy compared to Mercedes, Ford, Ferrari and new BAR's Honda. But it still rocks! It's got driveability and power...what more could a driver want?

New Honda however is said to be light, but not yet at full power potential.

What exactly is the difference between the two in technical terms? Any info out there?

Mugen boss says the two engines are totally different.

Could there be a little engineering competion between two teams inside Honda?

[This message has been edited by Alex (edited 03-16-2000).]

[Limey]

Its extremely unlikely that there is any information available about any current F1 engine. Honda released information about their V6 turbo only after it had been banned.

[BRG]

There can be no question that the Mugen is very powerful - after all it won races last year and was more or less in touch with Ferrari and Mercedes last Sunday. But it will probably now be classed as large and heavy compared to the newest engines.

Doubtless the new Honda, as a new design, is lighter and smaller, but also less developed so not yet producing its full potential output. Also BAR, desperate for a finish and a point, were probably running a very conservative engine mapping and rev-limit.

The question of how different they are is a hard one. The relationship between Mugen and Honda is an obscure one. Personally, I believe that they must work together very closely. Mugen have several times acquired or inherited engines previously badged as Honda - did they buy the rights, or where they gifts? It has never been revealed. There are or have been other similar links - Renault/Supertec, BMW/Megatron, where it wasn’t always clear where the dividing line lay. I am sure that the Mugen is still a lineal descendant, albeit a well developed one, of the previous Honda F1 engine and so essentially it is still a Honda. After all, when Nicholson-Mclaren and others built and developed Cosworth DFVs in the 1970s and 80s, we still called them Ford-Cosworths.

By mid season, I would expect the Honda to be outpacing the Mugen, but the picture might be muddied by the difference between the BAR and Jordan chassis. I think the Jordan looks much better; the BAR looked very cumbersome to me at Melbourne, although they may develop it.

What happens then is anyone ‘s guess - if Jordan are winning and BAR are still struggling, will Honda move their deal over, or maybe swop teams with Mugen? Or will there be some cascade of newer technology to Mugen to keep them competitive and maintain the Honda second string? We shall see.




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BRG

"all the time, maximum attack"

[desmo]

As I understand it, the Mugen badge is a way of HRC testing the waters in a particular branch of motorsport without risking the considerable prestige of the Honda name. The Mugen F1 engine was completely designed by Honda engineers. Competition between the works HRC boys and the Mugen teams at times in Honda's history has been the only real competition they've had!

Honda uses racing as a training ground for young engineers, and they do it better than anyone there is. The engineers who design the road lines of cars and motorcycles have been tested in the fires of top-level international competition. This gives them an engineering edge that no other firm enjoys.

[Billy Gunn]

Desmo,

I agree fully with what you have written there. The interesting thing is will Honda want to support two teams as they only have a single brand line. The same can be said for BMW, and Renault (I've just picked up news that they have bought Benetton race team), whereas the likes of M-Benz now have the Chrysler brand to support a second engine deal.
This leaves me to thinking when will the General make a move for F1 - they have got probably the most to gain from a marketing view. With Opel in mainland Europe, Vauxhall in the UK, and even Holden in Australia.

Billy G

[desmo]

I'd love to see GM get in the game, but they don't have the talent in-house to build a competitive F1 car. They would have to buy out engineering talent already in the sport. And how would they badge the valve covers?

[Ronan]

I wonder how long Honda will tolerate their works team being outperformed by Jordan. Electrohydraulics not being BAR's strong suit, not is the necessity of sharing wind tunnel time with a myriad of ther Reynard projects helping them.