108 replies to this topic

[layabout]

Any help in identifying this Mystery Car would be appreciated.

 

Some description:

 

Aluminum body

Right hand drive

Big Healey front suspension, but located at the top by a leaf spring

TR4 gauges

Jag rear end

Houdaille MGTD front shocks

 

The following are with the car, but they may not be original:

 

327 Chevy (with early-mid 60s ID)

Borg Warner T10

Four wheel disc brakes (LePar Dunlops)

Bizzarrini Campagnolo wheels 

 

It may have some DNA of a Tojeiro & there is a rumor that it had some connection to an unreleased Elvis Presley movie. The latter is a long shot. The car has been in California for at least five years, probably a lot longer.

 

Thank you for any help you can provide.

 

 

 

 

 

[Ray Bell]

Corvette rear end?

An alloy body would not be likely for a movie car, this is a very professional build. And it's still in great shape.

I wonder if Jerry or Willem have any clues?

[Rob G]

Are those Datsun 240Z taillights? Whatever that car is, it must have been at least somewhat active into the early '70s based on the taillights alone.

[layabout]

Corvette rear end?

An alloy body would not be likely for a movie car, this is a very professional build. And it's still in great shape.

I wonder if Jerry or Willem have any clues?

That's what we were thinking, alloy body & too nice a frame for a movie.

 

I was wrong about saying a Jag rear end. It's an early Ford center, modified to take short stub axles. Half shafts might be early Chrysler. Photos h/w:

 

 

 

 

[layabout]

Are those Datsun 240Z taillights? Whatever that car is, it must have been at least somewhat active into the early '70s based on the taillights alone.

Lots of non-original, as mentioned--brakes, wheels, motor, gearbox. Taillights are definitely another add on. Too bad, since originals might have aided identification.

 

Thanks

[Bloggsworth]

Interestingly, right-hand drive, which suggests a British/Commonwealth or Japanese origin (Unless the only steering rack available was from a Triumph Herald...) - Mind you, I doubt it's the product of any of the top men in the field, the chassis tubes are too straight for Cooper and too heavier guage for a Chapman or a Broadley; there is something of the agricultural about it. The rear radius arms look very short and must have caused some conflict in the geometry.

[Gary C]

...just the sort of barn find I'd  love to come my way.

[Charlieman]

Interestingly, right-hand drive, which suggests a British/Commonwealth or Japanese origin (Unless the only steering rack available was from a Triumph Herald...) - Mind you, I doubt it's the product of any of the top men in the field, the chassis tubes are too straight for Cooper and too heavier guage for a Chapman or a Broadley; there is something of the agricultural about it. The rear radius arms look very short and must have caused some conflict in the geometry.

I can't tell whether the rear radius arms are parallel or diverging. The longitudinal tube running from the front suspension to the rear is unusual but logical; if it did not exist the upper rear chassis (leaf spring and damper mounts) would be cantilevered. The bonnet clamp looks to be a Herald/Spitfire one mounted upside down.

[Bloggsworth]

I can't tell whether the rear radius arms are parallel or diverging. The longitudinal tube running from the front suspension to the rear is unusual but logical; if it did not exist the upper rear chassis (leaf spring and damper mounts) would be cantilevered. The bonnet clamp looks to be a Herald/Spitfire one mounted upside down.

 

There appears to be only an upper radius arm, which on spring compression would pull the outer end of the spring forward and twist the lower wishbone, which twist, with a short arm, would be considerable.

[PZR]

Are those Datsun 240Z taillights? Whatever that car is, it must have been at least somewhat active into the early '70s based on the taillights alone.

 

They are not 240Z or 260Z (or 280Z).

 

They ring a bell, but I can't put my finger on it. Anyway, they look like a later addition to the car.

 

Fascinating find!

[Ray Bell]

There's a lot of Yankee parts in there, I don't think it's British...

Front suspension and steering pics might be nice.

[layabout]

There's a lot of Yankee parts in there, I don't think it's British...

Front suspension and steering pics might be nice.

Agreed, lots of Yankee stuff, but the aluminum body & RHD are compelling arguments to think otherwise. There were relatively few aluminum "shapers" in the U.S. (Hagemann, Cal Metal, etc.)  compared to the British & there were only a couple of cars made in the U.S. during that period that were RHD & they are accounted for.

 

Please note: After closer inspection, it appears that the 327 Chevy & T10 are original to the car. There's no evidence of a different motor/gearbox being in it. That may tip the scales even more toward it being U.S. built.

The diff looks like it's non-original, as is the front leaf spring.

 

Some front suspension shots are attached.

 

Thank you to all who are helping us figure out this car's origins,

 

 

 

 

[layabout]

Interestingly, right-hand drive, which suggests a British/Commonwealth or Japanese origin (Unless the only steering rack available was from a Triumph Herald...) - Mind you, I doubt it's the product of any of the top men in the field, the chassis tubes are too straight for Cooper and too heavier guage for a Chapman or a Broadley; there is something of the agricultural about it. The rear radius arms look very short and must have caused some conflict in the geometry.

We were thinking more along the lines of Tojeiro & such, but that would be a stretch. Perhaps a small, one-off builder.

[layabout]

They are not 240Z or 260Z (or 280Z).

 

They ring a bell, but I can't put my finger on it. Anyway, they look like a later addition to the car.

 

Fascinating find!

1967 Toyota. Certainly not original to the car.

[David Birchall]

I would say definitely US or Canadian built.  Is the radiator Corvette?  Is all the bodywork aluminium?

[Bloggsworth]

Lever dampers - How very BMC...

[layabout]

I would say definitely US or Canadian built. Is the radiator Corvette? Is all the bodywork aluminium?

[layabout]

Yes, all aluminum body.
There’s evidence that the radiator is not original to the car. I don’t know it’s origin.

[Tom Glowacki]

Interestingly, right-hand drive, which suggests a British/Commonwealth or Japanese origin (Unless the only steering rack available was from a Triumph Herald...) - Mind you, I doubt it's the product of any of the top men in the field, the chassis tubes are too straight for Cooper and too heavier guage for a Chapman or a Broadley; there is something of the agricultural about it. The rear radius arms look very short and must have caused some conflict in the geometry.

The second and third front-engine Scarabs were right hand drive, so that does not take this car out of the US of A.

[D-Type]

If you are thinking Tojeiro, remember the AC Ace had a Tojeiro-designed chassis and the Cobra was essentially the same chassis.  So the builder may have taken inspiration from a Cobra and hence indirectly from a Tojeiro.

[Ray Bell]

The lower wishbones could be any of the BMC sedans, as could the uprights...

The disc brakes are an add-on.

No pics yet of the steering rack...

[Kenzclass]

This looks a bit like it and its history.

Except it's LH drive and independent rear.

https://donnybrooke....special-debuts/

Is there more than one of them?

[Tom Glowacki]

This looks a bit like it and its history.

Except it's LH drive and independent rear.

https://donnybrooke....special-debuts/

Is there more than one of them?

Your link goes to a Devin bodied special.  That had a fiberglass body built by Bill Devin, which is not the car in question here.  Here's a link to the Devin story:

 

http://www.devinspecial.com/

[mikeC]

Interestingly, right-hand drive, which suggests a British/Commonwealth or Japanese origin (Unless the only steering rack available was from a Triumph Herald...) ...

 

There would have been no shortage of left-hand drive Herald racks in the States, anyway! This probably doesn't help anything, but are they Herald bonnet catches in the lower front bodywork? 

[layabout]

The lower wishbones could be any of the BMC sedans, as could the uprights...

The disc brakes are an add-on.

No pics yet of the steering rack...

Your wish is my command...

 

Thank you for the help.

 

 

 

 

[Bloggsworth]

Could be a Morris Minor rack.

Edited by Bloggsworth, 05 July 2018 - 07:39.

[Ray Bell]

Which would have to be a left hand drive rack...

Again suggesting America.

[Bloggsworth]

Which would have to be a left hand drive rack...

Again suggesting America.

 

Why? Did we not have Morris Minors with RH drive?

[Ray Bell]

Sure, they were more plentiful than LHD...

But their rack was mounted behind the axle line.

[Lee Nicolle]

To me it looks heavy and [well] homebuilt. But presuming about 1960 using lever shocks etc makes it ancient even then. The Chev and T10 was very modern, the Ford Freighter [I presume] diff makes it American. Transverse leaf too is a bit unusual [I know Vettes used them for decades]  and again a bit weird. Maybe built by a pom in the US,, or a Yank in England as it seems to have very mixed heritage.

As for the alloy body, I feel sure that the body as a one off any decent sheetmetal or body builder could do it. A lot of work though

[Charlieman]

The Herald/Spitfire style bonnet catch dates the bodywork to 1959 at the earliest, assuming that the catch is original. It would be 1960 before a Herald crossed the Atlantic.

 

There appears to be only an upper radius arm, which on spring compression would pull the outer end of the spring forward and twist the lower wishbone, which twist, with a short arm, would be considerable.

There's a lot of rubber in the suspension, so lots of play. On paper, the rear suspension will wiggle and damper wear will be high, but it might work in practice.

 

Corvettes didn't use IRS until 1962, so it is unlikely to be Corvette inspired. I think our designer was using a bit of Cooper thinking (transverse leaf springs), with something else which I can't identify.

 

Even though the chassis design is crude, the workmanship is good. Are there any large diameter bent tubes? I'm thinking that the chassis was welded up by a very competent person in a small workshop. I think the car was designed in outline a few years before completion -- hence the essential suspension bits from 1950s production cars -- with the engine and transmission (not necessarily the ones found with the car but similar ones) slotted into the package when it was a rolling chassis. I fear it was out of date before it turned a wheel. 

 

This car is clearly a labour of love. Perhaps an American enthusiast working in engineering who had seen Tojeiros, Listers and Coopers when they were state of the art? Somebody with mates in the aircraft industry to build that body?

 

Edited to add final question mark.

Edited by Charlieman, 05 July 2018 - 10:17.

[Bloggsworth]

Sure, they were more plentiful than LHD...

But their rack was mounted behind the axle line.

 

Good point.

[David Birchall]

I think Bloggsworth has summed it up!  One thing for English enthusiasts (and Aussies too I guess) to remember is that there was a lot more money available to the average enthusiast in the US and Canada in the fifties and sixties.  Plus bigger engines,  a different attitude, etc...  

[Ray Bell]

I don't think the transverse leaf springs would have been seen as a problem for containing braking forces, at least not at the stage the car reached...

Peugeot 403s didn't have an issue with them on the front.

[DCapps]

Whoever built it seems to have been inspired by the Max Balchowsky / Bob Carnes way of doing things. It might be one of the Frank Townsend cars, the Mark 3 probably a guess. I think it had aluminum bodywork. That particular Townsend appeared at around 1962. I will have to scramble around the bookshelves and see if that is possibility, but that is what popped into my head when I looked it. Townsend out of Arizona (Tucson? Phoenix?) and I remember them as being well-engineered and constructed.

[layabout]

I don't think the transverse leaf springs would have been seen as a problem for containing braking forces, at least not at the stage the car reached...

Peugeot 403s didn't have an issue with them on the front.

The front transverse leaf spring is an add-on---definitely not original.

[layabout]

To me it looks heavy and [well] homebuilt. But presuming about 1960 using lever shocks etc makes it ancient even then. The Chev and T10 was very modern, the Ford Freighter [I presume] diff makes it American. Transverse leaf too is a bit unusual [I know Vettes used them for decades]  and again a bit weird. Maybe built by a pom in the US,, or a Yank in England as it seems to have very mixed heritage.

As for the alloy body, I feel sure that the body as a one off any decent sheetmetal or body builder could do it. A lot of work though

Actually the frame is very light---1.875 x 0.062 wall tubing. The date codes for the engine & gearbox are early 60s.

[David Birchall]

If you look at a picture of the front end of Ol' Yaller 2 you can see a similarity as Don Capps says.  Sports Car Illustrated did a full article on Ol Yaller 2--I wonder if the builders of this saw that article?

[Peter Morley]

If you are thinking Tojeiro, remember the AC Ace had a Tojeiro-designed chassis and the Cobra was essentially the same chassis.  So the builder may have taken inspiration from a Cobra and hence indirectly from a Tojeiro.

 

The Tojeiro chassis (then AC Ace & Cobra) was a ladder frame with two large diametre parrallel tubes.

There are some similarities to early Elva chassis but not many!

 

Pygmee F2 cars used the same Chrysler driveshaft joints.

[Ray Bell]

Those are known as 'ball and trunnion' joints...

They have some inbuilt plunge and I believe they were used in other makes as well as Chrysler pre-war. Chrysler preserved them into the late-sixties.

[Jager]

As you may or may not know, at Sebring in 1965, Iso Grifo / Bizarrini entered two cars which were both destroyed in the race, one car being completely cut in half after hitting the support for the pedestrian bridge :

 

https://c2.staticfli...6d75cdbd5_b.jpg

 

https://i0.wp.com/s3...resize=1140,566

 

According to the following report :

 

 

Some months after the race Max Balchowsky sent me two photocopies of the “new” car being reconstructed at his Hollywood Sports Cars shop from the two wrecks. Unfortunately, the quality of these copies is poor but to my knowledge no other photos of this project in process exist.

 

 

http://mycarquest.co...965-part-2.html

 

Given the Bizarrini wheels and 327 Chevrolet engine, is this a special built around the remnants of the parts left over after the first car was rebuilt ? Perhaps researching Max Malchowsky and Hollywood Sports Cars might turn up more information.

Edited by Jager, 13 July 2018 - 01:27.

[Rupertlt1]

See from 1961:

 

https://library.revs...ion=p17257coll1

 

https://library.revs...ion=p17257coll1

 

RGDS RLT

Edited by Rupertlt1, 13 July 2018 - 02:33.

[DCapps]

I finally found a few moments to look at what was on the bookshelves.

 

Starting with the books on the American road racing specials, of course: American Road Race Specials, 1934-70: Glory Days of Homebuilt Racers, Allan Girdler (Motorbooks International, 1990); Art Eastman, ed., Road Racing Specials (Vintage Motorsport, 2003); Harold W. Pace and Mark R. Brinker, Vintage American Road Racing Cars (Motorbooks International, 2004).

 

Given that the car seemed to be from about the 1959/60 to 1963/64 timeframe, that is the period that I concentrated on during my research.

 

Beginning with Girdler:

I thought it might be a Bob Carnes Bocar, but the various Bocar marks I looked at, XP-5 and XP-6, had fiberglass bodywork and did not have quite the same shape -- close, but...

Looked the various Ol' Yaller Marks to see if I might have missed out on one of them. The Mark II was close, but not close enough.

 

The Vintage Motorsport book:

1959/60: Nope.

1961/62: Burnett Mark I looked close, but has Devin fiberglass bodywork.

1963/64: Nope.

 

Taking a break, I then looked at the always interesting Sports Car Graphic, skimming through looking at the various specials that appeared in SCG during the early Sixties.

SCG December 1962, pages 48-51, "Townsend Special MK III," by Naurice Koonce, looks as if it might be a good possibility. It is the car and article that I recall since I looked at that issue just several weeks ago for something on the Fall 1962 Pro races. The car stuck in my mind for some reason. The engine being used in 1962 is a 389 Pontiac, by the way.

 

Pace & Brinker book:

The material on the Townsend Specials seems to indicate that it might be the Mark 4, given that the Mark 3 apparently used a Devin fiberglass creation. (244-246)

Closer looks at the Balchowsky VII, VIII, and IX good reminders how Max evolved the series.

 

Basically, it might be the Townsend Mark 4 since he was developing his own bodywork for that car. It seems to look similar to the Mark III design, so that is a possibility.

[E1pix]

Not very helpful, but interesting Townsend articles here:

http://www.sportscar...erican-special/

 

http://www.forgotten...-and-race-cars/

 

That car looks so familiar to me… but I was a kid then and they all looked the same. 

[David Birchall]

Do we know if the engine is 327 or 283 cu in?  (Presuming it should not be a 305 or 350)

[DCapps]

Do we know if the engine is 327 or 283 cu in?  (Presuming it should not be a 305 or 350)

 

If it is a Townsend, both the Mark 3 and the Mark 4 used the Pontiac 389 engine. Replacing it with a Chevrolet regardless of whether it was a 327 or 305 or 350 later on would have been relatively easy, given it would have fit pretty easily into the engine bay. Given the availability of Chevrolet engines versus the 389 Pontiac, replacing the Pontiac later on would have made sense.

 

If this in NOT a Townsend, then I really would not have a clue since nothing else really seems to be close.

[layabout]

Do we know if the engine is 327 or 283 cu in?  (Presuming it should not be a 305 or 350)

It's a 327 Chevy with an appropriate date code & the chassis does not appear to have been modified to accept a different engine.

[layabout]

I finally found a few moments to look at what was on the bookshelves.

 

Starting with the books on the American road racing specials, of course: American Road Race Specials, 1934-70: Glory Days of Homebuilt Racers, Allan Girdler (Motorbooks International, 1990); Art Eastman, ed., Road Racing Specials (Vintage Motorsport, 2003); Harold W. Pace and Mark R. Brinker, Vintage American Road Racing Cars (Motorbooks International, 2004).

 

Given that the car seemed to be from about the 1959/60 to 1963/64 timeframe, that is the period that I concentrated on during my research.

 

Beginning with Girdler:

I thought it might be a Bob Carnes Bocar, but the various Bocar marks I looked at, XP-5 and XP-6, had fiberglass bodywork and did not have quite the same shape -- close, but...

Looked the various Ol' Yaller Marks to see if I might have missed out on one of them. The Mark II was close, but not close enough.

 

The Vintage Motorsport book:

1959/60: Nope.

1961/62: Burnett Mark I looked close, but has Devin fiberglass bodywork.

1963/64: Nope.

 

Taking a break, I then looked at the always interesting Sports Car Graphic, skimming through looking at the various specials that appeared in SCG during the early Sixties.

SCG December 1962, pages 48-51, "Townsend Special MK III," by Naurice Koonce, looks as if it might be a good possibility. It is the car and article that I recall since I looked at that issue just several weeks ago for something on the Fall 1962 Pro races. The car stuck in my mind for some reason. The engine being used in 1962 is a 389 Pontiac, by the way.

 

Pace & Brinker book:

The material on the Townsend Specials seems to indicate that it might be the Mark 4, given that the Mark 3 apparently used a Devin fiberglass creation. (244-246)

Closer looks at the Balchowsky VII, VIII, and IX good reminders how Max evolved the series.

 

Basically, it might be the Townsend Mark 4 since he was developing his own bodywork for that car. It seems to look similar to the Mark III design, so that is a possibility.

The books you mention were my starting point. We've been speculating that the car might be Old Yeller IV, the so called "missing" car. A major reason for that belief is the fact that there are photos of it being used as a camera car with wire wheels in front & Campagnolo wheels made for a Bizzarrini 5300 on the rear---the same wheels that are on the mystery car. The fact that the previous owner believed the car was used (& damaged) in the making of some films added to the argument. The downside elements are the RHD & the fact that Balchowsky didn't use leaf springs. It is assumed that the aluminum body was a late addition, perhaps related to the damage in filming, if you believe the previous owner. 

 

The Typhoon series is an interesting suggestion, but the build is quite different from the mystery car.

 

For what it's worth, it looks like the car has a big Healey front suspension & brakes.

 

Thank you to all for the help. Fingers crossed that we find out what it is...

[Jager]

Given that the car seemed to be from about the 1959/60 to 1963/64 timeframe, that is the period that I concentrated on during my research.

 

Except that if the Bizzarrini 3500 wheels are from the original, doesn't that means it must be post 1965 ?

[DCapps]

Except that if the Bizzarrini 3500 wheels are from the original, doesn't that means it must be post 1965 ?

 

That is a big exception, not to mention that the number of front-engined specials built after 1962/63/64 is almost nil, rear-engined specials coming to the fore.

 

This car looks as something of the the usual Bitsa Special, more than likely passing through a number of hands over time, adding and literally shedding bits and pieces along the way, especially wheels.

 

Its aluminum bodywork is the oddity in this, given that so many of the front-engined specials used fiberglass bodywork, often something from Devlin or one of the clones of his work.

 

Very few of the larger specials had this type of bodywork, which is both time-consuming and expensive to make compared to the fiberglass alternative.

 

Townsend did make his own bodywork for the Mark 4, which appears to have been made from aluminum, not the fiberglass used for the Mark 3.

 

Given that the car seems to have been in the Southwest/Pacific Coast area without much in the way of being noticed enough to possibly make its way into any of the three Usual References on such matters, especially the VM and the Pace/Brinker books, raises several questions, of course. One is these being how did a car that might have appeared in the big Modified class, as this one may have, not attract any real notice? Another is that if it may have been a "movie" car, what movies or television shows did it appear in? Yet another is, just where was it found? If it was made post-1962, why? By 1965, it would have been an also-ran even at the regional level in SCCA.

 

I think that should Frank Townsend still be with us, it is probably worthwhile to contact him or his family.

 

In addition, if this car actually did take to the track, there is quite likely some form of documentation in one of the local club publications of the period.