13 replies to this topic

[Magoo]

Interesting how the two largest automakers, Toyota and VW, arrived at opposing strategies. 

 

 

 

https://www.volkswag...-question.html#

[desmo]

H2 will probably never be an economically viable fuel except in a narrow range of edge cases. I've never seen a good case made for how it makes sense and I don't understand major manufacturers investing any money in the idea. 

[Greg Locock]

Well, the pie in the sky reasoning goes that if you build a very large solar farm near a water source, then any power generated can be stored as hydrogen generated by electrolysis, and then transported to wherever it is needed. Other than the solar farm every step in that sentence is problematical.

 

A solution to the storage and transport issue is to convert the hydrogen to natural gas, which of course is directly useful, or ammonia, the production of which is responsible for a measurable amount of CO2. Ammonia can also be easily handled in bulk. This is then used for fertiliser etc. Either of those products can be reformed to hydrogen if that's what the end user wants.

 

There's a lot of taxpayer funded interest in this, egged on by a few billionaires who are putting more hot air than cash into it.

 

As it happens I know two people who are working on this, it really is a big field.

 

Traditional ideas of efficiency rather get blown out of the water when the energy content of the product is essentially free.

 

Personally I think the ammonia/fertiliser idea is good, nat gas seems a bit messy, and fuel cells are a niche.

[PJGD]

Dimethyl-ether [CH3-O-CH3] is also a good H2 carrier and also an excellent compression ignition fuel, is non-toxic [used as a propellant for hair spray, etc], and is ultra low CO2 when made from renewable feedstocks.  Requires to be pressurized to ~7 bar to be liquid.  Ford have a development programme with DME at the Aachen research lab. . .

[jcbc3]

Dimethyl-ether [CH3-O-CH3] is also a good H2 carrier and also an excellent compression ignition fuel, is non-toxic [used as a propellant for hair spray, etc], and is ultra low CO2 when made from renewable feedstocks.  Requires to be pressurized to ~7 bar to be liquid.  Ford have a development programme with DME at the Aachen research lab. . .

 

Yeah, my then company made a big hoolah out of this in 1995...

 

Link in Danish:

https://ing.dk/artik...rbraendstof-578

[Zoe]

 

A solution to the storage and transport issue is to convert the hydrogen to natural gas, which of course is directly useful, or ammonia, the production of which is responsible for a measurable amount of CO2. Ammonia can also be easily handled in bulk. This is then used for fertiliser etc. Either of those products can be reformed to hydrogen if that's what the end user wants.

 

 

Ammonia is / can be also used as fuel for freight ships. I think the first demonstrator vessels are being built / converted or even already in use.

[Magoo]

H2 will probably never be an economically viable fuel except in a narrow range of edge cases. I've never seen a good case made for how it makes sense and I don't understand major manufacturers investing any money in the idea. 

 

For a number of possible reasons, humans seem to have an affinity for hydrogen that they don't have for batteries. The preference does not seem to be based on engineering thought. 

 

The clever thing to say seems to be "batteries are just the path to hydrogen," but I don't see the path. 

[djr900]

I think the affinity is not for hydrogen, but for the hope that hydrogen will give all the things people like about Vehicles with engines -
Long Range + fast "recharging" + sensible purchase price + not too heavy etc. etc.

It's hard to have an affinity for a battery vehicle when you are waiting hours for it to charge when you need to use it , and can remember 5 minute visits to petrol stations .
That sort of thing

[Magoo]

I definitely perceive an affinity for hydrogen among car enthusiasts in the USA. 

 

For example the belief in hydrogen ICE, which is hopeless for passenger vehicles in any rational analysis. 

[Beri]

Not saying hydrogen is the answer, and certainly not for passenger road vehicles, but it is getting some serious flight over here in the Netherlands. Mostly it will be implemented heavily in public transportation like buses and such. But even there are some studies going on to replace natural gas with hydrogen and (largely) use the existing nutural gas infrastructure. Shell is building a green hydrogen plant as well as a French company who is doing this in the Netherlands. Facilities will be here and the infrastructure might as well even be in place. There is litterally all the reason to exploit it and to see how the consumer market reacts. But if it is proven to be valiable, I cant see how other countries will stay behind on this and with them, car manufacturers.

 

Edit: All the links are in Dutch. I trust on each of your wisdoms to pull them through Google Translate yourself 

Edited by Beri, 27 October 2022 - 13:09.

[desmo]

I definitely perceive an affinity for hydrogen among car enthusiasts in the USA. 

 

The forlorn hope that your ancient muscle car might some day actually become green must be alluring.

[Magoo]

It seems like the larger the vehicle or prime mover, the more sense fuel cells make. 

[Greg Locock]

If you put hydrogen into your beloved V8, it will grenade eventually  due to hydrogen embrittlement or HTHA. One is low temperature, the other is high temperature.

 

Secondly, the power output will be reduced, the hydrogen displaces air needed for combustion. Thirdly NOx is likely to be bad. 

[Magoo]

If you put hydrogen into your beloved V8, it will grenade eventually  due to hydrogen embrittlement or HTHA. One is low temperature, the other is high temperature.

 

Secondly, the power output will be reduced, the hydrogen displaces air needed for combustion. Thirdly NOx is likely to be bad. 

 

 

You can stand right next to a hydrogen V8 at WOT in the dyno room and there is an eerie lack of heat and noise. No drama, little output.