28 replies to this topic

[Writer2]

Hello.

 

I am currently writing a book about the early Ferrari F1/F2/Formula Libre cars.  It has taken two years so far and will probably take longer to gather all the information needed but I have learned a lot.  Thank you to TNF's posters, in particular Michael Muller, Allen Brown, Doug Nye and "Austria."

 

I have now reached 1950/51/52 and am trying to sort out the various tipo 375s.  Can anyone please help with the individual histories? All comments welcome.  So far, it appears that a total of seven F1 cars were built in 1950/51, two in 1950, they are known as GP50-1 and GP 50-2.

 

There were five more in 1951. I'm presuming, (dangerous, that..!) that they were numbered as GP51-1 through 5.   Louis Rosier bought one, apparently numbered as GP51.02, and Francisco, "Chico" Landi bought another, apparently a 1950 car, GP50.02.

 

In 1952, five cars were modified with extended chassis, modified engines etc, to compete at Indianapolis, plus one to Vandervell for TWS #4.  They were re-numbered. From what, does anyone know? Certainly, Indy Chassis number 4, Howard Keck's car, had been F1 chassis number 3. (New number 4 tag welded over original number 3 stampings).

 

Engines: One 375 engine went into the Thinwall Special #4, after #2 and 3, which had been 1949 125-C-02. This was engine number 10.  GP52/1 numbered engine went into "Arno XII", the Hydroplane. 

 

Another subject but obtaining good photos is also a problem.

Edited by Writer2, 30 March 2023 - 18:07.

[Roger Clark]

Is it correct that Thinwall #4 ws originally 125-C-02.   I thought it was a new, 1952 , car and that #3 was the rebuilt #2.

[B Squared]

I don't know if this car is among those you're researching, this is at the Ferrari Club of America's National meeting in the Detroit area (GM Tech Center and Grosse Pointe Yacht Club) in 1971 or '72. I'm not sure who owned the car at the time, possibly Mr. Merritt. If these are out of place, let me know and I'll delete.

 

B² photos at Dearborn area Holiday Inn parking lot

Edited by B Squared, 23 March 2023 - 11:10.

[Writer2]

Hello Roger and B Squared,

 

Thanks for your replies.Roger, as far as I am aware, chassis number 02C from 1948 was the first ThinWall Special, with 125-C-02 from 1949 being the next.  Both were returned to the factory, 02C then being sold on to Giovanni Bracco, who raced it a few times in period. . 125-C-02, AFAIAA, was returned to the factory also and rebuilt and returned, to make it TWS number 3, with a 375 engine.  It went back once more and was returned with, apparently, a lengthened Indianapolis type chassis and a twin-plug 375 engine, "010". From reading about F1 375 chassis number 3, which was modified to become an Indianapolis type chassis and re-stamped as number 4, it appears that these four "Indy" chassis were the 1951 F1 cars, with additional pieces used to lengthen them.  I'm still looking into this but if this is the case, TWS number 4 was still 125-C-02.

 

B Squared:  Yes, that is the 1952 Indianapolis 375, the Grant Piston Ring Special.  It did belong to Dick Merritt/Carl Bross when you photographed it. Apparently Indycar chassis number 2, according to a long ago article that I found from the 1970s, when Dick Merritt was helping Carl Bross assemble his collection of Ferraris.

[Writer2]

Roger,

 

The first TWS was 1948 Chassis 02C, returned with complaint to the factory in January 1950 after one unsuccessful race.

 

TWS number 2 was the 1949 4-camshaft, twin supercharged Long wheelbase 125-C-02. You are right. Returned to factory again, after another unsuccessful outing at Silverstone in 1950, where Ascari spun off in practice. Came back to England in 1951 rebuilt as number 3, with single-plug 375 engine. Raced successfully, apparently broken up but chassis recovered in 1973 by Tom Wheatcroft and rebuilt by Hall and Hall and shown in the Donington collection.

 

TWS number 4 was a lengthened Indianapolis type chassis, with a twin plug per cylinder 375 engine, number 010.  I must ask Mr Nye if this was a separate car to TWS number 3. The 1952 Indianapolis cars had, according to Kendall Merritt, who looked after the Howard Keck car, extensions to the original 1951 chassis, to give them a longer wheelbase for Indianapolis.  So was this 125-C-02 again, or a  completely different car? I tend to think that it was the same car, with an uprated engine.

Edited by Writer2, 27 March 2023 - 20:45.

[Roger Clark]

Vanwall by Jenkinson and Posthumus seems pretty clear that Thin Wall #4 was a completely new car. The new edition has additional photographs and captions by Doug Nye, one of which says “Thin Wall Special Ferrari chassis 125-C-02 was replaced by this fresh long-wheelbase Ferrari 375 Indianapolis chassis, serial 010-375”. 
 

The text says that Vandervell negotiated with Ferrari to buy a 2-litre 4-cylinder engine which he thought of fitting to the old Thin Wall chassis, that is #3. That idea went nowhere. An appendix in the original edition says that #3 was broken up in 1952. This was updated in the new version to say that #3 was saved from scrap by Tom Wheatcroft in the 1980s. In 2021 it was in the Ecclestone collection.   #4 as in the Monbouan Arts and Cars Collection, Brittany, France. 
 

Admittedly, the fact that two cars exist today does not mean that they did in 1952.  Even if there was some paper shuffling so that #4 retained the identity of #3, quite possible given what we know of later Vanwalls, it seems to me that the differences between the two make it only sensible to see #4 as a new car. 

[Writer2]

Roger,

 

Thank you so much for that information, helps a lot. From what I've researched so far, there were two single plug 375 F1 cars from September 1950, at the Italian GP. In 1951, it APPEARS that five more were built and raced.  Of these seven cars, one was sold to Chico Landi, probably 1950/2,  one to Louis Rosier, probably 1951/2, and four more were converted for the Indianapolis 500 of 1952.  That would leave one car, which appears to be the 375/010 that went to Vandervell, (perhaps the one crashed at Valentino Park in early 1952?), although I've long thought, (with no proof!)_, that that was probably the engine number...

[Writer2]

Looking through all the various car/engine combinations of these early, (1948-52), years, I have never understood the reasoning behind the 212 (2,562cc), engined cars.  This engine capacity was too large for F2, (2 litres unsupercharged limit), and too small for F1, (4.5 litres unsupercharged/1.5 litres supercharged limit).

 

Was Ferrari perhaps looking forward to the next, 2.5 litres capacity limit?

[Roger Clark]

The 212 engine was used mainly for sports and early touring cars. I believe it was the largest capacity achieved at the time from the Columbo V12.  Since the advent of the 166, extra capacity had been obtained by increasing the bore; the stroke remained the same.  It could be that the 212 was the largest capacity possible without the expense of a new crankshaft. Later Grand Prix V12s, starting at 3.3-litres were by Lampredi who replaced Columbo as chief designer.

 

That is speculation and could be way off.

[Writer2]

Hi Roger,

 

Thank you, I was aware of the Colombo engine's development and, as you say, by 1950/51, the 212 was the largest size of the Colombo engine, although it was further developed, still with the same stroke, 58.8mm, up to the 275 size, via the 225 and the 250.

 

My real point with this query was to discover the reason that Ferrari used this engine in 1950/51 in the F1/F2 cars, as it was too small for the former, (not enough power), when set against the Alfa 158/159), and too big for the latter.

[Roger Clark]

Who raced a 212 engine in Formula 1?

[Writer2]

I thought GP1+2/49 and GP3/50, when sold to Marzotto but am I wrong? Did they use 166 engines only for F2? The situation appears confused.

[Roger Clark]

I think you're correct and Scuderia Ferrari entered Serafini in a 212 engined car at the 1951 Syracuse and Pau Grands Prix.Old Racing Cars says that this was the car raced by Villoresi in 1950 at Bremgarten as a 125 and at Geneva as a 275.  This would be derived from research by Michael Muller, David McKinney and Adam Ferrington.so I would certainly believe it.

 

Is it possible that Ferrari, having abandoned superchargers, used the relatively plentiful 212 engines as an easy way of building a Formula 1 car for private owners and lesser works drivers while Lampredi engines were in short supply?

[Writer2]

Roger,

 

Still investigating but that's the only reason that I can see for these 212 engined cars in F1 at present.  As you say, for privateers to join in the F1 races.

[Writer2]

Can we move on to the 1951 Tipo 375s? I believe there were five cars built, plus the two from 1950, making seven in all.  Allen Brown in ORC says three in 1952? There is also the last Thinwall Special, #4, an Indianapolis spec. car.  This is referred to as "010" but is this the chassis, or engine number? Does anyone know please? One was sold to Landi, one to Rosier and four went to USA as Indianapolis cars. Add in the TWS #4 and there are seven cars.

Edited by Writer2, 01 April 2023 - 20:32.

[Roger Clark]

My knowledge of these cars comes mainly from published sources so there may be little here that is new, but it may be of some interest. My main sources are oldracingcars.com, Volume 5 of the Black Book (3rd edition) and Denis jenkinson's Racing Car Review, plus photograph in several other books. I believe that the 3rd edition of the Black book has significant updates from the 2nd. The people who produced those pages of ORC are generally beyond reproach but they have been frozen since 2014 as a tribute to David McKinney. the Black Book 3rd edition was published in 2020.

The 375 first appeared at the Italian Grand Prix 1950, driven by Ascari and Serafini. They had been entered for the Pescara race a few weeks earlier but did not appear. Ascari had driven a 340-engined car in the GP des Nations in Geneva but I don't know whether the same car was fitted with a 375 engine at Monza. ORC doesn't identify the Monza cars but the Black Book says 375-1 for Serafini, 375-2 for Ascari. These cars were used in 1951, including Gonzalez' historic win in the British Grand Prix.

The 1951 cars first appeared at San Remo. Racing Car Review says that the main differences were the twin plug engine, easily identifiable by the irregularly spaced exhausts and improved brakes. ORC and the Black Book both say that there were five cars, numbered 375-3 to -7. The cars received some bodywork modifications during the year; at Reims the windshield was blended into the scuttle replacing the flat aero screen. At Monza some of the cars had a high tail providing a headrest for the driver. ORC and the Black Book agree on who drove what except in the Geman Grand Prix where ORC says that Ascari drove one of the 1950 cars but the Black Book says that it was 375-4. Ascari's Nurburgring car was fitted with splash guards behind the front wheels. hiding the exhausts so I can't tell whether it had a twin plug engine. It certainly had the flat aero screen.

Also during 1951, Vandervell ran a 375 Thinwall Special but this was a 1949 car re-engined.

In 1952, Ferrari built four cars with longer wheelbase for Indianapolis. The longer wheelbase was required by local rules. Scuderia Ferrari entered three cars for the Valentino Park race. Ascari and Farina had long wheelbase cars and Villoresi had an earlier car. ORC doesn't have any identifies but the Black Book says that Ascari had 375-8, Farina 375-9 and Villoresi 375-10. We know that 375-10 was the Thinwall so the information for Villoresi is unlikely. The only other Scuderia Ferrari entries of a 375 that year were when the sent a car for Villoresi in the British Grand Prix support race and a meeting at Boreham Wood. ORC doesn't give an identity but the Black Book says that it was 375-4. The bodywork looks the same as Ascari's Indianapolis car to me.

There were three privately entered 375s during 1952. The 4th Thinwall special is listed 375-10. This car remained the property of Vandervell Products for many years and was later in the Donington Collection so I think we can be confident that it did cary that identification. Louis Rosier ran a car which the Black Book says was 375-5. Chico Landi raced a car under the Escuderia Bandeirantes; the Black Book says this was 375-2.

In 1953, Ferrari sent a 375 to Argentina for Ascari to drive in a Formule Libre race but I have no information about which car it was. The only Scuderia Ferrari entry in Europe that I can find was for Ascari at Albi. The Black Book says it was 375-4, Photographs show that it had a low tail and locked the large bonnet top air scoop of the 1952 works cars. The Thinwall and Rosier cars continued to race, mainly in Formula Libre.

[Writer2]

Roger,

 

Thank you so much for this, very helpful.  Personally, from all that I have read, I don't think, (notice: "think!"), that there was a /8,/9 built.  Numbers /6 and /7 were built in July/August 1951.  At present, I think /10 was possibly /01 renumbered, it "disappears" from the records after May, 1951. Yes, Landi bought /2 and Rosier /5. I know that/3 was re-numbered as /4 to be an Indianapolis spec car for 1952.  This leaves the other three Indycars as re-numbered 4, 6 and 7, which accounts for the seven cars. The Valentino Park cars can, I'm sure, can be worked out, particularly as Farina crashed his, which was supposed to go to Indianapolis as a "spare" works car for Ascari. I think /8,/9 would have  been built  too late for that race.

 

Incidentally, Keith Bluemel wrote a very good article about F1 #3/Indycar #4 in "Cavallino."  That clearly shows that the Indycar lengthened chassis were the original chassis from 1950/51, with pieces welded on/in to give the longer wheelbase.

Edited by Writer2, 04 April 2023 - 21:25.

[Dutchy]

May I make a tiny correction which isn't really germaine to the thread but Roger Clark referred to Boreham Wood? The circuit in question was Boreham, near Chelmsford in Essex while Borehamwood is a town in Hertfordshire with connections to the film industry rather than motor sport. Strangely, Duncan Hamilton referred to it as  Borehamwood in his autobiography 'Touch Wood'.

Edited by Dutchy, 06 April 2023 - 11:43.

[Writer2]

Thank you Dutchy!

[Roger Clark]

May I make a tiny correction which isn't really germaine to the thread but Roger Clark referred to Boreham Wood. The circuit in question was Boreham, near Chelmsford in Essex while Borehamwood is a town in Hertfordshire with connections to the film industry rather than motor sport. Strangely, Duncan Hamilton referred to itas  Borehamwood in his autobiography 'Touch Wood'.

Oh dear!

[Roger Clark]

Returning briefly to the 212 powered cars, Rudi Fischer drove one in 1951, entered by his Team Swordfish.

Edited by Roger Clark, 07 April 2023 - 12:47.

[Writer2]

I thought Fischer's car, Private sale number 110, the old 125-C-03/04, (no one's quite sure which), was run by Ecurie Espadon, or is that Italian for "Swordfish?"

[Roger Clark]

French.  Sorry if it was a failed attempt at humour.

[Writer2]

Another Ferrari mystery: Count Bruno Sterzi, 1949:

 

According to all that I read, Sterzi had an F2 car, 01F, which Enzo Ferrari sold to the Automobile Club of Argentina in June, 1949.  It was re-numbered as 011F and Fangio won the F2 race at Monza with it on June 26th, after it had been at the factory being repaired after Sterzi had a gearbox failure with it at Aix-les-Bains on June 21st.

 

But then we have Sterzi racing at Lake Garda on July 10th, 1949, in a F2 monoposto car with race number 20; there are several photos of it.  According to one account that I have read, Sterzi had a bad accident in the car and went to hospital with a broken leg.

 

The only cars that this could have been were 08C, (a works car for Ascari), or 10C, Peter Whitehead's car.  Both were maintained by the Factory. But both were racing the very next weekend... as was 01F/011F.

Edited by Writer2, 05 May 2023 - 20:25.

[Henk Vasmel]

I have 166F2-GP-02C, for Sterzi and Fangio since 19th of June 1949. That doesn't help much, because Fangio used the same car one week after Garda in Reims. Possibly the damage to the car was not too much?

In the field alternative cars, I have 166 C-01F or 159 C-001S. For Fangio in Reims, I only have 166F2-011F, which is the same as 166C-01F.

So the most likely scenario is that the car was repaired.

[Writer2]

Fangio drove 01F, the F2 car that the Automobile Club of Argentina had bought from Sterzi, via  Enzo Ferrari. This took place during the week of 21-27 June 1949.

 

The F2 car that Sterzi raced at Lake Garda on 10 July 1949 appears to be a 125C and the only difference that I can see from it and the other 5 cars then extant is that, on the engine cover, there are only 4 louvres in the first row from the front, whereas I count 6 louvres on the other cars, with the exception of 08C, which had 5. So it's not 08C, it's not 01F, it's not 12C, all of which I've been able to look at photographs of. 02C was in England as the first Thinwall Special, 06C was at Rheims with Mario Tadini.  10C was at Rheims also. Bonetto  was supposed to be at Garda for the race but he did not arrive, so I think it must have been this car, 04C. It did not race again for another 40 days.... Probably being repaired at the factory.

[Writer2]

Yet another Ferrari mystery from this period surfaces!  On 11th March, 1951, Rudolf Fischer drove a long wheelbase, swing axle car that he had bought from the factory with, apparently, chassis number 0110. He ran it for the rest of the 1951 season. Hans Tanner was at five of the 1951 races and reported these features.  So which car was this?  As far as I am aware, there were only three Ferraris that fitted this description; 125-C-01, 125-C-02, and the second FL car that was sold to Argentina, 013F, originally marked as 014.  All of these are accounted for in 1951. Originally, I had thought this a re-numbered 125-C-04 that Ascari had driven at the GP des Nations, at Geneva on 30th July 1950 but that was not a Long wheelbase car, and it had de  Dion rear suspension, not the old swing axle type.  Anyone?

Edited by Writer2, 17 May 2023 - 02:37.

[Arjan de Roos]

At Siracusa two 212's were present: one with the De Dion axle (a 166 F2 chassis) and the new engine. Fischer drove a "conventional" chassis. Is this not the 212 that resides in the Mulhouse museum? 

[Writer2]

Hello Arjan. Thank you. Yes, this is apparently chassis number 0110, Rudi Fischer's long wheelbase, swing axle car from 1951.