41 replies to this topic

[nick105]

I was prompted to ponder this by the Retro Driver of the Year thread.

So many top drivers and emerging talents were sadly killed in the 60s and early 70s. What would the drivers and constructors championships have been like if drivers such as Clark, Rindt, Cevert, Siffert, Rodriguez, Williamson, Brise, Revson & Peterson not been killed.  For instance would BRM have been more successful. Would some subsequent winning drivers have never made it to the top had the deaths not created vacant seats.  Arguably the constructors championships may not have been much different as the top teams always attract the top drivers.

Im not suggesting there is a definitive answer to my question - i pose it merely to provoke discussion.

  

[Ray Bell]

Isn't it said that Clark was close to retiring anyway?

 

Rindt would surely have gone on to bigger and better, also Cevert, Revson and Peterson, so they would have made it harder for some of the others. You missed McLaren in that little list, his continued presence might well have changed the course of history too.

 

Of course, we all would have loved to have seen what Pedro and Jo could have gone on to produce.

 

A real sub-question might be, "Would Fittipaldi have done so well if Rindt hadn't died?"

 

And, "Would James Hunt ever have become champion without some of these around?"

[LittleChris]

Tommy Peterson, Ronnie's brother, wrote on the Peterson Museum website many years ago that Ronnie was going to do one year at McLaren in 79 then retire from F1 to concentrate on racing saloons with BMW.  Seems strange ( Not least as I thought he signed a 2 year deal with McLaren ) but I'd assume his own brother may have had some knowledge of what SuperSwede was going to do.

[john aston]

Possibly more like it is now . We live in an era of bed blocker drivers who continue to race on when they really shouldn't. Once a driver stops getting better he needs to think about stopping and the moment he gets worse he should retire , giving an opportunity to someone still on an upward curve . Modern candidates include Bottas , Raikkonen and Riccardo and 70s ones include Hulme , Hill ,  Amon and post 74 Ickx  

[opplock]

 70s ones include Hulme , Hill ,  Amon and post 74 Ickx  

 

A little unfair to include Denny Hulme. He did win a Grand Prix in his last season (1974) and Autocourse ranked him at number 5 in their top 10 for 1973. 

 

He admitted in interview with Eion Young that Peter Revson's death affected him "I saw all the shambles and I thought well, bugger it, that's it... I just can't wait for the end of the year to get it all over with" and completed the season to fulfill contractual obligations.  

[2F-001]

I'm not sure I'd agree re. Amon; I thought there was still a touch of real magic lurking within, but hampered by some unfortunate choices and the lack of a lucky break (though perhaps also a less-than-fevered motivation after so many disappointments?).

Edited by 2F-001, 20 August 2023 - 08:50.

[LittleChris]

I agree, Amon put that Ensign in places it had no right to be in 1976

[hogstar]

Death and serious injury always opened opportunities for others, it was just part of the sport. Without sounding cruel, it got more people into F1 seats. 

 

Alan Jones was an obvious one that benefited. Pryce's demise lead him to do things with the DN8 it wasn't designed to do, joined Williams and the rest was history. 

[Charlieman]

I agree, Amon put that Ensign in places it had no right to be in 1976

The Ensign N176 was a cracking good design. Chris Amon was still quick when racing it, happy to accommodate Ensign's limited budget for engine rebuilds and testing, but he couldn't live with brake and chassis failures. He retired from F1 at the right time for himself.

[Dick Dastardly]

If Clark hadn't died, wonder how he would have got on with the Lotus 72...

There was talk that Rindt may have retired at end of 1970 once he'd won the WDC....but that may be because of all the other fatalities affecting him.

I can see Tony Brise being at Williams instead of Alan Jones, so he may have become 1980 WDC.

 

Would the 1974 Tyrrell Team have been Cevert & Williamson / Birrell ?

 

Back in the early 2000s, there were Fisichella, Trulli, Barrichello, Panis, Ralf Schumacher etc holding onto seats and preventing newcomers from coming through. 

Even Michael Schumacher when he was at Mercedes.

 

Nico Rosberg had the right attitude....once he'd won the WDC, he quit feeling he wouldn't win it again, so no point in hanging around.

If only some drivers who'd be unlikely to challenge for a WDC after being in the game for a while would do the same.....Hulkenberg, even Perez, spring to mind.

I know Hulk had left F1 but returned due to his experience....some teams need that rather than raw rookies eg Haas.

Edited by Dick Dastardly, 20 August 2023 - 21:34.

[F1Frog]

I had a go at writing an alternate history with this https://forums.autos...1/?fromsearch=1

[john aston]

I'm not sure I'd agree re. Amon; I thought there was still a touch of real magic lurking within, but hampered by some unfortunate choices and the lack of a lucky break (though perhaps also a less-than-fevered motivation after so many disappointments?).

I liked Amon , a lot . But after the last Matra year in 1972 , did I really think the eternal nearly man was going to get  a better drive and for his luck to change? Nope. 

[flatlandsman]

I think Jody was fairly similar to Nico in that he achieved his goal, his 1980 season was pretty pathetic in an admittedly poor car but he never really looked back and you can almost sense of that when you see him now talking about it, he has a very SA personality, being South African is not a help due to the totally different way those guys express themselves which is a little at odds with the way an American, or Brit would, but you sensed job done, next thing. And he has made a huge success of his life. .

 

I got the sense with Nico he simply could not put himself and more importantly his wife and young family through anymore, and the vilification he got was for me beyond ridiculous.

 

As for potential retirements back then, I do not think you can really question any decisions made or talked about, it was a very different game, death almost inevitable let alone more likely at times. 

 

But I do feel change would have been slower, without Jackie and Lauda change would have been a lot slower, they might have still been at the Ring for example.

 

But change did come, the turbo era while fraught with danger was far better for most people while still taking life, and Senna was the main pivot to the place we are now with an overly sanitised sport where risk is almost removed entirely to be replaced by drivers taking obscene risk with each other and driving off track nearly everywhere to take advantage of this new found space. 

[Dick Dastardly]

Slightly off-topic.....if that Nov 29th 1975 plane crash hadn't happened, Graham's Embassy Team would have survived into 1976 at least, so another team competing that year.

After the accident....and before James signed for McLaren...I'd hoped that the Embassy sponsorship would have moved onto the Hesketh team as that was when it badly needed the money.

[Doug Nye]

A highly influential gent at the top end of Formula 1 once admitted to an interested friend and me - only half jokingly - that "...drivers' careers are lasting too long these days - we're not killing 'em off often enough...".

 

DCN

[Collombin]

I'm sure I've seen a remark like that attributed to Bernie - possibly by your interested friend?

[hogstar]

I think Jody was fairly similar to Nico in that he achieved his goal, his 1980 season was pretty pathetic in an admittedly poor car but he never really looked back and you can almost sense of that when you see him now talking about it, he has a very SA personality, being South African is not a help due to the totally different way those guys express themselves which is a little at odds with the way an American, or Brit would, but you sensed job done, next thing. And he has made a huge success of his life. .

 

I got the sense with Nico he simply could not put himself and more importantly his wife and young family through anymore, and the vilification he got was for me beyond ridiculous.

 

As for potential retirements back then, I do not think you can really question any decisions made or talked about, it was a very different game, death almost inevitable let alone more likely at times. 

 

But I do feel change would have been slower, without Jackie and Lauda change would have been a lot slower, they might have still been at the Ring for example.

 

But change did come, the turbo era while fraught with danger was far better for most people while still taking life, and Senna was the main pivot to the place we are now with an overly sanitised sport where risk is almost removed entirely to be replaced by drivers taking obscene risk with each other and driving off track nearly everywhere to take advantage of this new found space. 

 

Great Post. 

 

I like what Nico did. He basically said to himself I'm going to completely devote everything to beating Hamilton for one season - and he did it. He was basically proving a point to himself and to others that it could be done - if he wanted to. He wasn't prepared to that season in, season out because he had a life outside F1, whereas Lewis has often cut himself as a more lonely figure who has ​only got F1.

 

You highlight the point of the more the tracks get safer, the drivers get more dangerous between themselves which shows how F1 has got the balance wrong. Did JYS campaign for safer tracks so drivers in future could take liberties with each other? I think not. 

 

As an addition to Doug's post, I've often wondered if F1 today had one or two very unsavoury deaths, the big money in F1 could walk away as sponsors don't like that sort of thing. In turn, the sport could be saved from the corporate machine that simply seems to decide whether it should allow any more teams in F1 and who they are. 

[rl1856]

Rodriquez and Siffert would have performed better than Beltoise et al in 1972, however they would have driven the cars provided by a fading BRM team that was spread too thin.  Would Lauda and Regga been able to go to BRM in 1973 ?

 

Had Rindt lived, it is likely that Emmo would have received the usual Lotus #2 treatment and may not have emerged as the driver he became, or if he did it would have been a few years later, and in a different car.  Would Peterson have gone to Lotus, or another team ?   Perhaps he would have been available to Tyrell in 1974 to partner Cevert ?

 

If Clark had stayed on for a few more years, would Lotus have been able to get Rindt ?   Rindt proved that the Lotus 49 was still as good a car as Stewart's Matra MS80 in 1969.  Would Clark have made a difference in the outcome of the 1969 WDC ?

 

Would Courage have emerged as a top driver and moved to factory team ?    

 

What would Williamson and Brise have accomplished ?   Would would have happened in 1974 if Revson did not have his accident ?

 

What would Senna have gone on to accomplish had he merely retired from the race at Imola ?

[flatlandsman]

The money in F1 is now different to what it was, yes the sponsors are largely similar, just trying to either be associated with the sport to bolster their image like DHL or Heineken or some others, or maintaining their image like Rolex or some of the banks.

 

The money is also now generated from hosting races and bidding. The sport is also a victim to sportwashing from lots of places like Saudi, Bahrain and others who buy races to broaden their appeal with regard to tourism and marketing. And make people think nothing bad happens there, when we all know it does. 

 

This was never a thing in the 80's or even 90's. The sport went where it was popular or where Bernie wanted to take it for whatever reason!

 

I do not like to look back at what if's.it is pointless. There have been some awful things happen in the lat 20 years but thankfully less fatality, but it has still happened away from f1 and many times, I do not see sponsors running. 

[DCapps]

When Jody Scheckter was still running FATS, I got the impression from several of the senior staff that he would discuss racing with only a very few of us (lucky me!) and that business was business.

I got the clear sensing that he felt that leaving after the 1979 season would have been a smarter move because he could get on with tings, but there were obligations...

Only during, say, a much or just standing around at I/ITSEC or a demo or whatever did we talk racing. Otherwise it was business. Racing did not make him exactly wealthy, FATS was necessary.

And, he was always amazed at how many people remembered his days in racing...especially in the USA where there were always a few fans asking for autographs.

 

Nico Rosberg was a smart guy, made what I think was a gutsy decision, one that was right for him.

 

As for the larger question, maybe better, maybe not, but certainly different. 

Then again, there is also the reality that motor sport was changing in various ways and not just F1 & Europe.

[Geoff E]

If people hadn't died, perhaps Jackie Stewart would have continued for several years more.

[noriaki]

One what-if that I believe hasn't been mentioned yet is Ricardo Rodriguez, who died in 1962.

 

It's probably hard to guess ultimately how good he would have become, and how long he would have stayed with Ferrari - but had he survived, I don't think it's a stretch to say that he would still have been racing in the mid to late 1970s. He was almost two years younger than Mario Andretti... 

[Risil]

One what-if that I believe hasn't been mentioned yet is Ricardo Rodriguez, who died in 1962.

 

It's probably hard to guess ultimately how good he would have become, and how long he would have stayed with Ferrari - but had he survived, I don't think it's a stretch to say that he would still have been racing in the mid to late 1970s. He was almost two years younger than Mario Andretti... 

 

Until 1996 then! Maybe he'd have nabbed Adrian Fernandez's Tecate sponsorship.

[nick105]

I had a go at writing an alternate history with this https://forums.autos...1/?fromsearch=1

Thanks F1Frog, thats just the sort of considered speculation that i was after. I don't know how i missed your original posting !

[Ray Bell]

Ricardo's experience, and that of Gary Hocking, introduce another level of thought...

 

Rather than thinking of what happened because drivers who'd risen to the top were killed, what about the ones just coming in?

 

I'm sure we could think of a number of them, emerging talent cut off in its prime.

[Dave Ware]

If Bruce McLaren had not perished, then surely Peter Gethin would not have been signed by the team in '71, and surely not Revson in '72.  Would Gethin had gotten a chance with another F1 team, and if so, which one might have been interested?  If none, then it looks like he would have had a fine career in F5000 and second-gen Can-Am, minus that wonderful Italian GP win. 

 

I'm not sure that Revson would have been that attractive to the F1 teams.  He was no spring chicken, (33 in 1972) and yes, he won the Can-Am while driving for the best team, and he was fast in Champ Cars, but I don't think that's what they were looking for.  Though perhaps he would have been picked up by Shadow in '73, which might have been fruitful in '74 and '75.  That does make sense.  Nothing against George Follmer, (I always thought he was an odd choice, and I'm a yank)  but I think Shadow would have chosen Revson if he'd been available in '73.  I can see him scoring a couple of wins for Shadow, perhaps even more. 

[john aston]

I am always amused by speculations like this , as they are so often sunny and optimistic, with loved drivers at last fulfilling their potential in this alternative universe. But it is equally foreseeable that if driver A had survived , by doing so he might have caused the accident which killed  the young Alain Prost, or run over Adrian Newey in a pitlane tragedy in 88 or secured the contract which in our universe was given to a Mika Hakkinen or Damon Hill.

 

Speculation ? Alternative futures? That  way madness lies  

[lyntonh]

I am always amused by speculations like this , as they are so often sunny and optimistic, with loved drivers at last fulfilling their potential in this alternative universe. But it is equally foreseeable that if driver A had survived , by doing so he might have caused the accident which killed  the young Alain Prost, or run over Adrian Newey in a pitlane tragedy in 88 or secured the contract which in our universe was given to a Mika Hakkinen or Damon Hill.

 

Speculation ? Alternative futures? That  way madness lies  

I regard this kind of thread as a workaround to put together another 'list'.

 

As is often quoted here in Australia, attributed to a local racing driver of note from back in the day,

when questioned about what might have been, if something hadn't broken causing his retirement from a race....

 

'If my Auntie had balls she'd be my Uncle'.

Edited by lyntonh, 22 August 2023 - 08:32.

[B Squared]

'If my Auntie had balls she'd be my Uncle'.

In these times, Auntie with balls is still Auntie.....

[Charlieman]

My response to the thread title is: Not very much different.

 

Driver deaths did not change behaviour much externally. The inadequate training of marshals when Roger Williamson died was still present for Tom Pryce. I think a few deaths made people aware that armco railings themselves could be deadly. This awareness partially led to catch fencing -- I think that this particular folly was identified before there was a high profile fatality. Circuits were improved by increasing run off areas. Fire safety requirements for cars were improved on a regular basis -- enclosure of fuel tanks, deformable structures, break-away connectors etc.

 

Ironically the most significant contributions to driver safety arose from the desire to build faster cars. The Lotus 79 placed the fuel tank behind the driver. Later ground effects cars adopted honeycomb aluminium or kevlar reinforced structures. The McLaren MP4/1, arguably the first carbon fibre composite monocoque, demonstrated that it was possible to design a driver shell which could resist big impacts. There were still some awful accidents in carbon fibre construction cars -- they had to be designed right and one way to prove that was to smash them up on a test rig.

 

Bernie Ecclestone indirectly improved safety by increasing TV coverage. Viewers wanted death-defying sport, not death.

Edited by Charlieman, 23 August 2023 - 16:07.

[Bloggsworth]

Different?

[Charlieman]

Not very much different.

[hogstar]

 

Bernie Ecclestone indirectly improved safety by increasing TV coverage. Viewers wanted death-defying sport, not death.

 

While viewers didn't want death, many that grew up with it and accepted it was a possibility that could happen. Death defying will occasionally lead to death, otherwise it becomes a contradiction in terms. 

 

It was the sponsors and especially the TV companies that would have not put up with it as the sport got bigger and bigger. I do wonder when the next fatality happens, there will be such an overreaction that the sport no longer is one.

[ensign14]

Tommy Peterson, Ronnie's brother, wrote on the Peterson Museum website many years ago that Ronnie was going to do one year at McLaren in 79 then retire from F1 to concentrate on racing saloons with BMW.  Seems strange ( Not least as I thought he signed a 2 year deal with McLaren ) but I'd assume his own brother may have had some knowledge of what SuperSwede was going to do.

Ronnie would have had two problems in 1979.  One, the car was a dog.  Two, his style was not exactly suited for ground effects.  He may have been out of a drive regardless...

 

...to come back as Gilles' replacement in late 1982 and win the title in 1983.

[WonderWoman61]

If Clark hadn't died, wonder how he would have got on with the Lotus 72...
There was talk that Rindt may have retired at end of 1970 once he'd won the WDC....but that may be because of all the other fatalities affecting him.
I can see Tony Brise being at Williams instead of Alan Jones, so he may have become 1980 WDC.
 
Would the 1974 Tyrrell Team have been Cevert & Williamson / Birrell ?

Jim Clark in the Lotus 72 would have been amazing!

Tyrrell in 1974 would probably have been François Cevert and Gerry Birrell as Tom Wheatcroft was planning to run Roger Williamson in a McLaren at least according to The Lost Generation.

[PCC]

Ronnie would have had two problems in 1979.  One, the car was a dog.  Two, his style was not exactly suited for ground effects.  He may have been out of a drive regardless...

 

...to come back as Gilles' replacement in late 1982 and win the title in 1983.

Except that, in the scenario we're discussing, Gilles doesn't need to be replaced!

[hogstar]

Jim Clark in the Lotus 72 would have been amazing!

Tyrrell in 1974 would probably have been François Cevert and Gerry Birrell as Tom Wheatcroft was planning to run Roger Williamson in a McLaren at least according to The Lost Generation.

 

That's right. Roger wanted to stay loyal to Tom so 2 M23's for were purchased. I've often wondered what happened to them. Were they sent back? 

 

Roger was very quick and would not have taken long to be successful, so you could have seen him joining McLaren in '75 had fate not intervened. 

[WonderWoman61]

That's right. Roger wanted to stay loyal to Tom so 2 M23's for were purchased. I've often wondered what happened to them. Were they sent back? 
 
Roger was very quick and would not have taken long to be successful, so you could have seen him joining McLaren in '75 had fate not intervened.

Given the circumstances, it was more than just fate, but I agree.

[chr1s]

Except that, in the scenario we're discussing, Gilles doesn't need to be replaced!

Not unless he'd left Ferrari for Williams, as most of these "what if" threads seem to suggest was going to happen, especially after being beaten to the 82' title by Pironi!

[WonderWoman61]

Not unless he'd left Ferrari for Williams, as most of these "what if" threads seem to suggest was going to happen, especially after being beaten to the 82' title by Pironi!

Unless Pironi still had his accident

[Michael Ferner]

I always thought that Patrick Depailler was the perfect 'replacement' for François Cevert, and I imagine the latter would probably have had much the same results as the former, had he survived. So, not much change there, except for the question: would Depailler have found a free seat in F1? Probably yes, given his success in F2 by then, so maybe March, and then to Ligier, pronto? Or, maybe a dead end at BRM!?!! 

Edited by Michael Ferner, 07 October 2023 - 14:05.

[WonderWoman61]

That's right. Roger wanted to stay loyal to Tom so 2 M23's for were purchased. I've often wondered what happened to them. Were they sent back? 
 
Roger was very quick and would not have taken long to be successful, so you could have seen him joining McLaren in '75 had fate not intervened.

I think BRM also expressed an interest in Williamson