53 replies to this topic

[Doug Nye]

Beyond memorising each annual 'Observer's Book of Cars' until I was about eight years old, I have never been particularly interested in road cars...as opposed to racers.

 

I suspect this rather nice photo from (we think) 1908 shows a Mercedes.  Should I hang my head in shame or is this indeed a Mercedes model?  If anyone has any idea when, where and what's going on I would also appreciate a clue... The particularly well-nourished driver also looks familiar....?

 

 

Photo: The GP Library

 

DCN

[68targa]

Reminded me of this chap although the eyes don't quite fit.  However if it is then I don't suppose Vicenzo Lancia would be seen in a Mercedes

 

From a glass plate I suspect judging by the sharpness of detail.  There always seems to be so much going on in these photos. The two ladies are really not sure this is a good idea.

 

 

[Lee Nicolle]

Beyond memorising each annual 'Observer's Book of Cars' until I was about eight years old, I have never been particularly interested in road cars...as opposed to racers.

 

I suspect this rather nice photo from (we think) 1908 shows a Mercedes.  Should I hang my head in shame or is this indeed a Mercedes model?  If anyone has any idea when, where and what's going on I would also appreciate a clue... The particularly well-nourished driver also looks familiar....?

 

 

Photo: The GP Library

 

DCN

Even then what is a road car?? Many of us have seen Duncan Pittaway driving the Fiat on the roads,, as it was in period. With the Stig in company in something of a similar vintage.

OR in the US Tom Baileys 'Camaro' which is a high 5 sec 250mph drag car

I do agree with the ladies might I add!

[Doug Nye]

Not purpose-built for racing...the basic design tenet having been to compete. A category description which was, then and now, admittedly fuzzy around the edges. Rather like a mule - tricky to specify at mere sight, useful but fruitless.

 

DCN

[a_tifoosi]

Paul Faure on a Mercedes, perhaps? 

[Vitesse2]

Based on the Continental banner - 'Pneu' rather than 'Reifen' - I think the photo - and indeed the car - might be Swiss? The painted number plate on the grille doesn't look to be either a German or Austro-Hungarian pattern, but it does look very similar to pre-1914 Swiss ones.

 

https://francoplaque...99-PASS_1905-14

 

Austro-Hungarian plates were black or black and red on white and German ones were black on white.

 

I can't think where, other than Switzerland, Continental would have marketed their products in French. Except possibly Alsace, but again, local number plates would have been to a German pattern. The banner should really read 'Pneus Continental' - plural - but maybe the singular is an idiosyncracy of Francophone Switzerland? Or simply an error when the banner was produced by a German who didn't speak French? Reifen is both the singular and plural of the English word tyre.

 

Belgium might be another possibility of course, but pre-1912 Belgian plates were black on white.

[jcbc3]

Flags in the back ground:

 

 

Italian? 

[Michael Ferner]

The car definitely looks Mercedes, but at the time I think many other manufacturers mimicked that look. FIAT, too, I think, but to me the driver does not look at all like Lancia. The whole setup (banner, spectators) points to a competition, maybe a 'Tour des Touristes', like the Prinz-Heinrich-Fahrt? (Obviously, this is not Germany but rather France, but I don't know of such competitions in France after 1903; like Doug I'm into racing cars, not cars!  )

Edited by Michael Ferner, 31 August 2023 - 08:46.

[jcbc3]

The driver is not, but bears a fleeting resemblence to Lautenschlager.

[Vitesse2]

Flags in the back ground:

 

 

Italian? 

I was thinking the closest one looked French, maybe Belgian for the second one we can see and perhaps Swiss for the furthest one. But there seem to be five poles and only three or four flags ...

[jcbc3]

Yeah, not Italian. They still had the shield in the white part then. Only removed that in 1946.

[Michael Ferner]

I know nothing of flags, but the whole point to me seems to convey colours to represent a country, and this is a monochrome photograph.

 

 

The driver is not, but bears a fleeting resemblence to Lautenschlager.

 

No, he doesn't. Sorry, I know everyone sees resemblances differently, but this guy looks nothing like Lautenschlager to me.

[RCH]

Now this is uncanny and I'm not quite sure how it came about, I am looking for a police box in the background...

The driver is quite definitely Fangio in his former existence....Let me explain, The driver bears an uncanny resemblance to the driver in an Airfix Mercedes kit I had years ago. He was later transferred, suitably modified, to a Lancia Ferrari model so who else could the driver be? His front seat companion, why a very young Stirling Moss. The ladies? Well they look strangely like my great grandmothers...

 

I think I need a lie down...

[robert dick]

The "road car" is most probably the Duc de Montpensier's Mercedes Sixty,
and one of the lady passengers could be the Duchesse de Montpensier.

The driver is certainly Paul Faure.
For comparison, Faure at the wheel of a Mercedes racer in September 1907, Château-Thierry hillclimb.
The Mercedes of Château-Thierry was a 1905/1906 racer, owned and entered by the Duc de Montpensier.
(photo Bibliothèque Nationale/Paris, Jules Beau)

 

[a_tifoosi]

Fantastic Robert!

 

More pics of Paul Faure, "Le Gros", in La Vie au Grand Air: here, here and here.

 

@ Doug: is the original glass plate from Maurice-Louis Branger's archive? This could also help in identifying the location (or, at least, the country)?

Edited by a_tifoosi, 31 August 2023 - 10:13.

[jtremlett]

Surely the photo is in France?  The banner is written in French, the building appears to be displaying a French tricolour (which would indicate it is a public building and probably the town hall, although, since it isn't very large, probably not of a very large town).  The architecture, including the further building, also looks French.

[Porsche718]

Beyond memorising each annual 'Observer's Book of Cars' until I was about eight years old, I have never been particularly interested in road cars...as opposed to racers.

 

I suspect this rather nice photo from (we think) 1908 shows a Mercedes.  Should I hang my head in shame or is this indeed a Mercedes model?  If anyone has any idea when, where and what's going on I would also appreciate a clue... The particularly well-nourished driver also looks familiar....?

 

 

Photo: The GP Library

 

DCN

 

I'm fairly sure it's a 1907 Mercedes. They seemed to change the shape of the front axle every year.

 

 

1907 Mercedes 75 PS Trials 

[davidbuckden]

The 'look' of the bonnet and radiator is very much like a 140-HP Grand Prix Mercedes driven by Otto Salzer at Dieppe in July 1908, seen here:

 

 BTW, my version of your Observer's was the stupendous DUMPY Pocket Book of Cars and Commercial Vehicles.

[Doug Nye]

Thank you all - the range of suggestions above pretty much mirrors the process I have gone through this week.  The image is from one of Branger's glass plates in our GPL collection.  And - as always for anything concerning this period - particular thanks to Robert, wonderfully helpful, and very much appreciated.

 

DCN

[amerikalei]

Fantastic Robert!

 

More pics of Paul Faure, "Le Gros", in La Vie au Grand Air: here, here and here.

 

@ Doug: is the original glass plate from Maurice-Louis Branger's archive? This could also help in identifying the location (or, at least, the country)?

Those are really fascinating.  The third of the links where they're "hiking out" as part of the cornering technique, plus the newspaper layout following an arc, if quite nice.

[a_tifoosi]

The image is from one of Branger's glass plates in our GPL collection.

 

DCN

 

If the original plate comes from the archive of Maurice-Louis Branger, it could be interesting to track the locations/events that were covered by his photo reportage agency during these years (e.g. 1907-1909):

• The Klemantaski Collection
• Science Museum Library and Archives

I understand that the largest collection of Branger plates belongs to Roger Viollet (?) AFAIK, though, there's no on-line database.

 

(And the GPL collection, of course!)

[Bloggsworth]

Never mind Mercedes, in the golf club car park on Tuesday, a nice Alfa Romeo Montreal:

 

[Doug Nye]

Aah yes - chauffeur Paul 'Le Gros' Faure - sometimes a riding mechanic was just too small to act as a counter balance...

 

 

Photo via Bibliothèque Nationale/Paris

 

DCN

[jeffbee]

Never mind Mercedes, in the golf club car park on Tuesday, a nice Alfa Romeo Montreal:

 

Yes, I remember that a small gentleman, well known in Formula One circles, used to own an orange version of the Montreal in the days that he frequented a pub in Bexley.  On one occasion he was caught, red handed, trying to sneak out of the car park quickly, having given the landlord's car a gentle nudge!! 

[a_tifoosi]

Another picture of Paul Faure in front of his garage in 1907:

 

 

Source: La Vie au Grand Air

 

Note the "Mercedes" inscription on the façade. 

Edited by a_tifoosi, 01 September 2023 - 11:30.

[robert dick]

 

Faure in the six-cylinder Mercedes, Château-Thierry hillclimb, 18 October 1908

(class for six-cylinder cars with a bore exceeding 110 mm, four-seater, four passengers):

 

https://anno.onb.ac....eite=19&zoom=33

 

[a_tifoosi]

So the exact location is the avenue de Soissons in Chateau-Thierry:

 

 

The building behind, the Palais de Justice.

 

 

 

Edited: oops, Robert was faster  !

Edited by a_tifoosi, 01 September 2023 - 15:52.

[Doug Nye]

Thank you very much indeed, gentlemen, for your interest and time.  Interesting how Branger supplied images to the German 'Allgemeine-Automobil-Zeitung', as well as to 'La France Automobile' amongst his other customers.  This adds an extra frisson to the privilege of handling his original glass-plate negative - and thinking, "...this was there".

 

Below - Chateau-Thierry's Palais de Justice from the always wonderful Google Earth Street View provides the 'now' to Branger's 'then'.  A measure of the human madness which intervened is the chilling deportation monument on the right, reminding us of WW2's Holocaust victims.

 

 

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 01 September 2023 - 18:23.

[Doug Nye]

Apologies, but while trawling around in early period competition I have just found four negs I cannot positively identify from the contemporary journals at my disposal.  Anyone?

 

All four come from a 1903 Dourdan speed trials file.  My normal reference, 'La France Automobile' provides little help.  It lists results perfectly well, but with no individual competition numbers nor helpful illustrations.

 

These are the images:

 

1

 

2

 

3 

 

4

 

There are clues on only two of the negs - 1 Hanriot ( which would fit, at Dourdan 1903 he set 3rd FTD in the heavy car class in a Clément-Bayard...) - and 3 Hubert (unmentioned in same report unless this is perhaps Hubert le Blon in a Gardner-Serpollet, 2nd in the same category - but while there's plenty of steam apparent here, he would surely have driven his familiar streamliner, which did not have a nose-mounted radiator to cool what is surely an i/c engine? Duray set FTD in a Gobron-Brillié - which I would have recognised - but otherwise I am sadly unsure of my ground here).

 

Sorry to feel the need to ask.

 

DCN

 

Edited by Doug Nye, 02 September 2023 - 19:20.

[Vitesse2]

Could the second picture be a Napier D50?

[a_tifoosi]

The 2nd picture is Gabreau in a Boyer 2 cyl (58.2 sec, 1st on category vehicles of 4000 to 8000 francs, 4 seats).

 

The 4th picture is a Richard-Brasier.

 

As for "Hubert", M. Le Blon and Mme. Le Blon respectively raced on #82 and #83 Serpollets within the voitures category. In the touristes category, there were two entries under "Tony Huber" name (without 't', #102 and #103).

 

The entry list can be found in L'Auto.

Edited by a_tifoosi, 02 September 2023 - 23:03.

[GLaird]

I feel guilty posting this, as  I have nothing to add, just thanks.

 

I am not really into this genre, but had  a look, got drawn in by the replies and conversation, and just want to say thank you for every one who posts, and adds to the picture, literally in this case..

 

A simple 'like' on  someones individual post just would not cover it g

[AJCee]

I totally echo your comments GLaird: it’s not something I know anything much about but it’s still a compelling thread.

[a_tifoosi]

Pictures of the Dourdan event from the Jules Beau collection (BnF):

 

 

 

[Doug Nye]

 

 

The entry list can be found in <a data-ipb="nomediaparse" data-cke-saved-href="http://file///C:/Use...916/Downloads/L" href="http://file///C:/Use...916/Downloads/L" auto-v%c3%a9lo___automobilisme_cyclisme_athl%c3%a9tisme_%5b...%5d_bpt6k46255284.pdf"="">L'Auto.

 

Thanks for this lead.  I have tried numerous times to log onto 'L'Auto' at the Gallica/BnF website (for example) but with restricted IT grasp/intelligence (?) I can never make it work.  Sadly this link for me just comes up with "Safari can't find the server".  As with phoning a doctor's practice these days I'd love to get through.  

 

 

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 03 September 2023 - 08:36.

[a_tifoosi]

 

The entry list can be found in <a data-ipb="nomediaparse" data-cke-saved-href="http://file///C:/Use...916/Downloads/L" href="http://file///C:/Users/AT014916/Downloads/L" auto-v%c3%a9lo___automobilisme_cyclisme_athl%c3%a9tisme_%5b...%5d_bpt6k46255284.pdf"="">L'Auto.

 

Apologies Doug, this link doesn't work. My fault!

 

This is the correct link to the entry list of L'Auto: https://gallica.bnf..../bpt6k46255284/

 

Also, the link of the BnF to the pictures of Jules Beau in Dourdan: https://gallica.bnf....s Beau1903 1903

 

There are many pictures. I just posted those somehow related to the images from the GPL collection.

[68targa]

Le Monde 22 October lists entries with competitor  numbers.

 

https://gallica.bnf....r=dourdan speed

 

https://gallica.bnf....r=dourdan speed

 

And the results on 6 November Le Monde

 

https://gallica.bnf....542927g/f1.item

 

There is also an english language report in the American reports Sports Supplement

 

https://gallica.bnf....peed?rk=21459;2

[robert dick]

1 = Hanriot/650-kg Clément-Bayard

 

2 = Gabreau/Noé Boyer

 

3 = Teste/older 1000-kg Panhard, 1902 "Seventy"

 

4 = Danjean/650-kg Richard-Brasier

 

[Doug Nye]

As always ... thank you all, very much.  As I write - the Italian GP is under way.  I never dreamed I would ever do anything other than stay tightly focused on one of those.  Sigh.

 

DCN

[robert dick]

Remark:

Georges Teste's Panhard did not appear in the entry lists of October or November.

However, Teste and the Panhard were present when a first part of the "kilomètre lancé" was run at Dourdan in October.

This first part was stopped because of rain, "épreuve interrompue".

 

On this photo published in Le Monde Illustré of 23 October 1903, the Teste Panhard, carrying no. 103, can be seen in the foreground:

https://gallica.bnf....864h/f404.image

 

[a_tifoosi]

Interesting how Branger supplied images to the German 'Allgemeine-Automobil-Zeitung', as well as to 'La France Automobile' amongst his other customers.  This adds an extra frisson to the privilege of handling his original glass-plate negative - and thinking, "...this was there".

 

When researching the Copa Catalunya, voiturette races held around Barcelona in 1908-10, I came across a picture from Branger of Antoine d'Avaray that was simultaneously published in, at least, four countries: Los Deportes (Spain), La Vie au Grand Air (France), La Stampa Sportiva (Italy) and Allgemeine Automobil-Zeitung (Germany). The original glass plate belongs to the Klemantaski Collection.

Edited by a_tifoosi, 03 September 2023 - 20:46.

[robert dick]

Photo 3 is highly interesting.
Another view of Georges Teste at Dourdan in October 1903, at the wheel of a Panhard special:

 

 

 

 

 

and at Gaillon in October 1902, at the wheel of a Panhard "Seventy" of the 1000-kg class:


Obviously the car used in 1903 is not a modified 1902 Seventy but a "kilomètre-lancé spéciale", a combination of different/smaller engine and lightened frame. Most of the components seem to be of Panhard origin, but the vehicle used at Dourdan in 1903 is a "grand mystère".
 

[Doug Nye]

Well thank you Robert - I am so pleased that you seem to be getting something out of this as well, instead of me just draining assistance from you.  It's such a pity that the image is - by a long way - not one of Branger's best.

 

DCN

[robert dick]

Oh, what a good time I had with Faure, the Montpensiers, Hanriot, and then with Brasier who was working on the 1904 Bennett car...

 

[robert dick]

Sorry, I'm learning a lot - correction photo 3:

 

The car is a Tony Huber (or Tony-Huber) driven by L. Picherot (or Pichereau),

bore x stroke = 140 x 160 mm, 9,85 litres:

 

 

Image from Le Monde Sportif (= organised the Dourdan meeting), 9 November 1903:

https://gallica.bnf....542930z/f3.item

 

 

Article about Tony-Huber engines/Le Chauffeur/March 1904:

https://gallica.bnf....63743p/f22.item

 

[Doug Nye]

Interesting to see that the Tony-Huber engine was a 6-cylinder.  According to various sources the company only appears to have indulged in production of 4-cylinder cars between 1902 and 1906, but in assorted corporate forms it made engines for boats and (ambitiously) aeroplanes for several years more.

 

In these early years the motor industry, especially in France, was like silicone valley's Dot-com craze - investors and techies with big ambitions just tumbling in head over heels.  The recession of 1909-10 wiped out quite a number. Consider history...or repeat its mistakes.

 

DCN

[marksixman]

In these early years the motor industry, especially in France, was like silicone valley's Dot-com craze - investors and techies with big ambitions just tumbling in head over heels.  The recession of 1909-10 wiped out quite a number. Consider history...or repeat its mistakes.

 

DCN

Now, Doug, you would never be referring to the EV brigade would you ?!!!!

[Doug Nye]

If the cap fits...   

 

DCN

[robert dick]

The engine of the Tony-Huber used at Dourdan was a 9,85-litre four-cylinder L-head (140 x 160 mm).
It was composed of four steel singles with detachable cast-iron heads and copper jackets.
The carburetor was mounted somewhere "down under" so that, because of the L-head configuration, the left-hand side of the engine looked like one side of a 16-valve T-head.



The 9,85-litre was a big-bore variation of the 5,5-litre Tony-Huber that appeared in the "touristes" section of the 1903 Paris-Madrid. It was one of the very first L-head engines. Description of the smaller 5,5-litre Tony-Huber engine (112 x 140 mm) in La Locomotion Automobile:
https://cnum.cnam.fr.../265/stTdmstTdp

Two-cylinder Tony-Huber of the 1903 Paris-Madrid:
https://cnum.cnam.fr.../553/stTdmstTdp

Tony-Huber exhibit at the 1903 Paris Salon:
https://cnum.cnam.fr.../844/stTdmstTdp

Tony Huber was born in Paris in 1874.
 

[robert dick]

Photographer Branger in general - from "Presse Publicité"/Paris, 14 March 1937, page 14: