23 replies to this topic

[brucemoxon]

Goodwood's St Mary Trophy race was a cracker. 

 

But.

 

I'm intrigued about the rules the cars run to, mainly because the big Austins seemed way too speedy over a lap. You see, my Dad raced an A95 Westminster here in Australia back in the day. While there was a fair bit of latitude in engine modifications and they were having a massive fudge with the gearbox, the brakes were totally useless. Tiny, tiny drums that did next to nothing when it came to retarding the car. 

 

So, are they allowed brake upgrades for these races? Among other things, because they all sound pretty bloody healthy on the video I've seen.

 

 

 

BRM

[Red Socks]

Regulations- Goodwood , do these two words belong in the same sentence ?

[Garsted]

I think the cars for this race are sourced primarily from the HRDC series. The regulations do not appear to be available on their website.

Steve

[GazChed]

The earlier St Mary's Trophy cars are indeed provided by Julius Thurgood's HRDC organisation and compete in that organisation's Jack Sears Trophy for cars which competed in the BSCC from 1958 to 1966.

From what I can gather the Jaguars compete in the Coombs Trophy class for Jaguars from 1950 to 1966 (although only cars built up to 1960 competed in this year's St Mary's Trophy) and must comply with the specifications in place at the time they were built, A30/A35/A40s compete in the Speedwell class and are powered by 1293cc engines while all other cars may be powered by any engine from the same family i.e. BMC, Rootes, Ford etc so long as it was built before 1963. Hence MGB powered Riley 1.5s etc. I think there are also other modifications allowed to the suspension etc.

[70JesperOH]

Having wondered about the subject about St. Mary's Trophy technical regulations too, and thinking it would be like asking NASCAR for their technical regulations... you're in or you're nowhere!

 

A while ago I looked into the Ford Fairlane Thunderbolt driven by Tom Kristensen and Henry Mann for the 2015(?) St. Mary's Trophy. The car was a replica of an Holman & Moody NASCAR/Ford test car originally weighing in at 2,500 ibs (around 1200 kgs), but according to Goodwood regulations the replica had to weigh 1500 kgs and race with steel bumpers rather than aluminiums. But that is the nearest I have found of a reference to Goodwood technical regulations for the St. Mary's Trophy.

 

Jesper

[brucemoxon]

Thanks everyone. There had been a discussion on another group. I was wondering what were the rules - seems there are few! Hence the Peter Brock 48/215 Holden which I think had disc brakes, a four-speed gearbox and a much later 'Red' engine. A lot of money for a car you really can't race again. 

 

Mind you, the races are often very entertaining.

 

BRM

Edited by brucemoxon, 17 September 2023 - 01:47.

[Lee Nicolle]

Goodwood's St Mary Trophy race was a cracker. 

 

But.

 

I'm intrigued about the rules the cars run to, mainly because the big Austins seemed way too speedy over a lap. You see, my Dad raced an A95 Westminster here in Australia back in the day. While there was a fair bit of latitude in engine modifications and they were having a massive fudge with the gearbox, the brakes were totally useless. Tiny, tiny drums that did next to nothing when it came to retarding the car. 

 

So, are they allowed brake upgrades for these races? Among other things, because they all sound pretty bloody healthy on the video I've seen.

 

 

 

BRM

Actually A90 drums are quite large and heavy. Efficiency?? Dont know.

[Lee Nicolle]

Thanks everyone. There had been a discussion on another group. I was wondering what were the rules - seems there are few! Hence the Peter Brock 48/215 Holden which I think had disc brakes, a four-speed gearbox and a much later 'Red' engine. A lot of money for a car you really can't race again. 

 

Mind you, the races are often very entertaining.

 

BRM

Brock Humpy used a grey engine,, with XU1 gearbox and disc brakes. Though that was a good while ago.

[brucemoxon]

Brock Humpy used a grey engine,, with XU1 gearbox and disc brakes. Though that was a good while ago.

 

Standing corrected. Thanks for that. 

 

 

BRM

[Catalina Park]

Under the pre-Appendix J era the gearbox and brakes were free. (as was as the cylinder head)
So what Brock raced at Goodwood would have met the spirit of what Leo Geoghegan and John French raced at Bathurst in 1958.

[RCH]

The earlier St Mary's Trophy cars are indeed provided by Julius Thurgood's HRDC organisation and compete in that organisation's Jack Sears Trophy for cars which competed in the BSCC from 1958 to 1966.

From what I can gather the Jaguars compete in the Coombs Trophy class for Jaguars from 1950 to 1966 (although only cars built up to 1960 competed in this year's St Mary's Trophy) and must comply with the specifications in place at the time they were built, A30/A35/A40s compete in the Speedwell class and are powered by 1293cc engines while all other cars may be powered by any engine from the same family i.e. BMC, Rootes, Ford etc so long as it was built before 1963. Hence MGB powered Riley 1.5s etc. I think there are also other modifications allowed to the suspension etc.

 

This explains a lot and as I have always suspected Jaguars are effectively handicapped. Why cars other than Jaguars are not forced to race to a spec that was current when they were built defeats me. Why for Goodwood could a Jaguar not run to the spec allowed for "other cars"? Would it just not be invited? 

 

I am a huge fan of the Phase 3 Vanguard, I learnt to derive on a Standard Ensign (downmarket Vanguard) and even attempted to rally it but that Vanguard doesn't even seem to comply with rules as stated above. 

 

Clearly the St Mary's Trophy is designed to appeal to the unknowing and uncaring public but couldn't a race based strictly, well more strictly, on the spec of cars that ran at Goodwood in 1959 be equally appealing? 

[GazChed]

One of the problems regarding the organisation of a series based on the early days of the British Saloon Car Championship is that the first four seasons were run to four different sets of regulations.

The first season of the BSCC, 1958, saw the championship run to a fairly standard specification with few modifications allowed. The following season saw the International Group Three regulations adopted, allowing more modifications while for 1960 the championship was restricted to one litre saloons although they were allowed almost unlimited modifications providing the bodyshell, engine, gearbox and axle looked standard from the outside. It wasn't until the following season, 1961, that the Group Two regulations were adopted and these regulations remained in place until 1965 forming the basis of the rules for the later St Mary's Trophy races.

Not only that, but most 'saloon' car races at Goodwood in this period, apart from the occasional BSCC race, were closed car handicaps allowing in not just saloons but also Jaguar XKs, Aston Martins and other closed sportscars. Against this background I suppose Goodwood and the HRDC have taken a pragmatic approach and decided to allow fairly relaxed regulations which allow more readily available parts to be used to ensure healthy grids. The Coombs class Jaguars were due to have their own series but in reality the numbers did not materialize and they were amalgamated with the pre 1960 Touring Greats series. As this is the only series run for cars from this era (there are several for the later 1961-1965 cars) it tends to provide the backbone of the earlier St Mary's Trophy races.

[Lee Nicolle]

This explains a lot and as I have always suspected Jaguars are effectively handicapped. Why cars other than Jaguars are not forced to race to a spec that was current when they were built defeats me. Why for Goodwood could a Jaguar not run to the spec allowed for "other cars"? Would it just not be invited? 

 

I am a huge fan of the Phase 3 Vanguard, I learnt to derive on a Standard Ensign (downmarket Vanguard) and even attempted to rally it but that Vanguard doesn't even seem to comply with rules as stated above. 

 

Clearly the St Mary's Trophy is designed to appeal to the unknowing and uncaring public but couldn't a race based strictly, well more strictly, on the spec of cars that ran at Goodwood in 1959 be equally appealing? 

Ph3 Ghansvard were not Vanguards,, they had no chassis! And no tractor engine. And that one it seemed had a 2500 Triumph engine

[john aston]

This explains a lot and as I have always suspected Jaguars are effectively handicapped. Why cars other than Jaguars are not forced to race to a spec that was current when they were built defeats me. Why for Goodwood could a Jaguar not run to the spec allowed for "other cars"? Would it just not be invited? 

 

I am a huge fan of the Phase 3 Vanguard, I learnt to derive on a Standard Ensign (downmarket Vanguard) and even attempted to rally it but that Vanguard doesn't even seem to comply with rules as stated above. 

 

Clearly the St Mary's Trophy is designed to appeal to the unknowing and uncaring public but couldn't a race based strictly, well more strictly, on the spec of cars that ran at Goodwood in 1959 be equally appealing? 

 I hope I am reasonably knowing but I really don't care if Goodwood plays fast and loose with historical accuracy. The racing is sensational . There's plenty of series in the UK which adhere to past specs more faithfully if that is what is desired . But as l've said before, Goodwood is sui generis  , and I celebrate that . The fact it sacrifices technical compliance on the altar of the show is fine- I think to complain otherwise is akin to criticising  a Beatles tribute band for having too good a sound system, nothing like as poor as the Vox AC 15 used in period ... 

Edited by john aston, 18 September 2023 - 06:32.

[RCH]

 I hope I am reasonably knowing but I really don't care if Goodwood plays fast and loose with historical accuracy. The racing is sensational . There's plenty of series in the UK which adhere to past specs more faithfully if that is what is desired . But as l've said before, Goodwood is sui generis  , and I celebrate that . The fact it sacrifices technical compliance on the altar of the show is fine- I think to complain otherwise is akin to criticising  a Beatles tribute band for having too good a sound system, nothing like as poor as the Vox AC 15 used in period ... 

 

I take your point about the racing being sensational. However isn't it rather missing the point of being "historic" ?

[Charlieman]

I take your point about the racing being sensational. However isn't it rather missing the point of being "historic" ?

Perhaps historical rather than historic.

[flatlandsman]

I think as a spectator you have to take it with a pinch of salt, it does not really count for anything, any series or championships, yet people and companies are prepared to spend an inordinate amount of time and money to win there.

 

it is beyond belief to me, but that is the appeal of this place to some people.

 

People in motorsport usually have more money than sense and Goodwood personifies this in extreme

[john aston]

I take your point about the racing being sensational. However isn't it rather missing the point of being "historic" ?

 Well, its success suggests otherwise . Its years since I've done the Revival but I attend the Members' Meeting most years and despite also attending many other race meetings , Goodwood is always a highlight . History, schmistory , it's an affectionate , re-imagined  tribute act to an age which seems progressively more golden the longer ago it was . I'd rather enjoy Goodwood's act than endure the precise reality of racing in period - thin grids common, awful safety, amateurish marshalling ,  terrible catering  and some far worse drivers than would be allowed out now   

[D-Type]

I sense a bit of ambiguity here.  I was told that the Tatra that raced a few years ago and trailed round at the back was to period spec.  The real go-faster goodies were developed a few years later than 1966 but they were not allowed to use them.

Edited by D-Type, 20 September 2023 - 12:19.

[Doug Nye]

I've mentioned it before but Goodwood's events - with the partial-exception of the Members' Meeting - are designed more for the entertainment and enjoyment of the paying spectator, than for that (plus the competitive achievement) of the participants.  

 

This is a crucial difference in philosophy - and indeed in reason to be.

 

This is in no way to say that Goodwood does not also make an immense investment in ensuring the enjoyment, comfort and relative convenience of the participants...but obsession with every aspect of regulatory detail is irrelevant where spectator satisfaction is the principal objective.  It's just different. 

 

DCN

[malomay]

I too love the racing at the revival, and the St Marys trophy was one of the most enjoyable of all.

 

I just wish my dad was still here to have seen this years though. He owned 3 Standard Vanguards at one point in time (for some reason !)

 

He would have been absolutely chuffed & amazed to see (& hear) one racing around Goodwood so vigorously, as the ones he owned spent more time in parts that actually running on the road from my very dim memory :-)

 

regards

 

Mal

[Stephen W]

The earlier St Mary's Trophy cars are indeed provided by Julius Thurgood's HRDC organisation and compete in that organisation's Jack Sears Trophy for cars which competed in the BSCC from 1958 to 1966.

From what I can gather the Jaguars compete in the Coombs Trophy class for Jaguars from 1950 to 1966 (although only cars built up to 1960 competed in this year's St Mary's Trophy) and must comply with the specifications in place at the time they were built, A30/A35/A40s compete in the Speedwell class and are powered by 1293cc engines while all other cars may be powered by any engine from the same family i.e. BMC, Rootes, Ford etc so long as it was built before 1963. Hence MGB powered Riley 1.5s etc. I think there are also other modifications allowed to the suspension etc.

 

 

Ph3 Ghansvard were not Vanguards,, they had no chassis! And no tractor engine. And that one it seemed had a 2500 Triumph engine

 

The Triumph engine would be allowed as GazChed pointed out as the family would be Standard-Triumph.

[RCH]

The Triumph engine would be allowed as GazChed pointed out as the family would be Standard-Triumph.

Well not really...  I don't think the 2.5 engine appeared until 1967.

[Perruqueporte]

From my perspective, the colossal gap between period performance and Revival performance needs to be accepted with good grace. Nobody is forced to participate! And the economic and social impact on the historic vehicle engineering sector is hugely beneficial. As a spectator I love the spectacle and the sport and the entertainment. I was approached some years ago and asked if my Jaguar 3.4 Saloon might be available for the St Mary Trophy. I declined because, apart from anything else, the car is the only one of the handful that were ordered and prepared for competition in period, to remain original in terms of specification and performance, which in turn means that it is very slow by comparison with those Mk1s that belong to the likes of Grant Williams and Nigel Webb. Those machines are fantastic, and I hope sincerely that they and their like continue to “push the performance envelope” for the foreseeable future. I’m sure that if drivers and entrants and engineers of yore - men with names like Hawthorn, Sears, Sopwith and Salvadori - were still around to witness recent St Mary Trophy races, they would be tickled pink.

Christopher W.