21 replies to this topic

[Doug Nye]

Sorry to be on the cadge yet again but - against the clock - does anyone have a reference (even just place names passed) which define the Anseremme circuit used for the so-called 1912 Belgian GP - based near Dinant - and for the 1907 Coupe de l'Auto circuit at Rambouillet?

 

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 25 September 2023 - 18:24.

[a_tifoosi]

L'Auto, 24 September 1907: 

 

 

Link here.

 

Narcís.

[LittleChris]

1912 Belgian Grand Prix - TNF's Archive - The Autosport Forums

[Doug Nye]

Stunning. For the map 16 minutes - for the lead to points passed, precious little longer.  Thank you so very much Narcis and Chris.

 

DCN

[LittleChris]

A little more info from Rob Semmelings excellent RennenRacesVitesse to be found here

 

Wegcircuits.nl

 

 

Bottom of page 50 refers 

Edited by LittleChris, 25 September 2023 - 19:23.

[Tim Murray]

Darren Galpin has this for Rambouillet:

http://www.silhouet....ambouillet.html

[a_tifoosi]

Le Vingtième Siècle, 18 July 1912:

 

 

Link here

 

Narcís.

[Doug Nye]

Oh now that is just stunning, Narcis! Thank you so very much everyone.

DCN

[Ray Bell]

About the best I could do with it, Doug:
 

 
Note that it goes around the town of Beauraing and doesn't go right into Dinant. And when you look at some of the pictures of the area it's a pretty spectacular spot for sightseeing.

[Ray Bell]

This one was a bit harder...
 
Mainly because I was looking for Rambouillet to be to the West of Ablis, and with St Arnoult to the North of them.
 

 

The way I've had to do it is almost right, but almost is as good as you'll get. Google gives the lap distance as 30kms.

[Tim Murray]

Google gives the lap distance as 30kms.

Darren Galpin (see link above) gives the lap length as 53.902 Km.

[a_tifoosi]

The length was claimed to be 33 km 820 m:

 

 

Link here.

 

 

Narcís.

[Ray Bell]

I set it up again...
 
Maybe I was misquoting the distance, they now have it at 33.5kms, and it seems it cannot possibly be as long as 50kms.
 
Check the data:



48.619964N 1.832798E


Head south-east on D936 towards Rue de la Droue

6.0 km

At the roundabout, take the 2nd exit onto Rue André Thome/D936 heading to St Arnoult en Ynes

Continue to follow D936

5.1 km

Turn left onto Rue Poupinel/D988 (signs for Rochefort en Ynes/Limours/Centre Ville)

Destination will be on the right
 
9 m


12 min (11.1 km)

2 Rue Poupinel

78730 Saint-Arnoult-en-Yvelines, France


Head south-west on Rue Poupinel/D988 towards Rue de la Boucauderie/D936

Continue to follow D988
 
9.0 km


At the roundabout, take the 1st exit onto D168 heading to Ablis
 
500 m

At the roundabout, take the 3rd exit

49 m

Continue onto Rue du Hurepoix

59 m

Turn right onto Rue du Petit Poirier
 

Destination will be on the right
 
130 m

9 min (9.7 km)

26 Rue du Petit Poirier

78660 Ablis, France

Take Rue de l'Europe, Rue de la Paix and Rue de la Mairie/D177 to N10

4 min (1.8 km)

Follow N10 to D936 in Sonchamp. Take the D936 exit from N10

7 min (10.8 km)

Turn right onto D936

Destination will be on the right


3 sec (27 m)
 
10 min (12.6 km)


Sonchamp

[Ray Bell]

The problem with doing this today with Google maps is that the junction nearest Rambouillet is now an overpass...

That means it could have been moved a considerable distance, or might not have been moved at all, to allow for the roads needed for the junction to function.

Additionally, it's hard to say exactly what route the circuit took through Ablis or whether the roads remain the same today.

[Doug Nye]

The interesting part to me is that the dead-straight second leg of the Rambouillet Voiturette circuit was the Dourdan record-stretch which hosted such prominent sprint and record meetings in period.

 

Apart from the ever-present tension concerning reliability, those miles must have been a yawnfest in those cars - but then the thrill threshold would have been so much lower in those pioneering days.  It's quite fun thinking oneself back into that early period - but then we have the luxury of knowing what was to follow...far more drama, tension, excitement and fear than anyone could ever really contemplate.

 

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 28 September 2023 - 05:30.

[Darren Galpin]

Darren Galpin (see link above) gives the lap length as 53.902 Km.

 

If you assume I messed up the units, if you divide 53.902 km by 1.6094 to convert it to miles, you come out with 33, which matches the number in km from a_tifoosi. Methinks I converted something which I shouldn't have.....

Edited by Darren Galpin, 28 September 2023 - 21:14.

[Doug Nye]

Still fossicking around in pre-WW1 motor sporting territory.  In 1906 a Circuit International Criterium de Regularité Touriste rally-style event was run which took the participants from the start in Spa, Belgium, to Nijmegen, Bonn, Luxembourg, Reims, Dinant and back to Spa. Bonhams sold a charming contemporary poster for it in its 2019 Paris sale, fetching over £1,000 for it. BUT, the poster bore no specific dates for the event itself.  It was sponsored by 'Les Sports' magazine, but I have failed in my attemps to find any relevant issue.  Might anyone here perhaps have a reference to those fixture dates?

 

DCN

[68targa]

Dates seem to be 20-25 July 1906  - From Le Petit Bleu du Matin 29 May 1906 ed

 

https://www.belgicap...g=EN&per_type=0

[robert dick]

The interesting part to me is that the dead-straight second leg of the Rambouillet Voiturette circuit was the Dourdan record-stretch which hosted such prominent sprint and record meetings in period.

DCN

 

Concerning the piece of road used for the "kilomètre à Dourdan":

 

On Saturday, 3 May 1902, Willie Vanderbilt, David Bishop and Henri de Rothschild tried to break the kilometre record, at the wheel of three 40-hp Mercedes, three 6.5-litre Forties. 

On Saturday morning, Vanderbilt, Bishop (Rothschild joined in the afternoon only) and the official ACF time keepers Tampier and Gaudichard had the intention to use a stretch of the road from Chartres to Bonneval, just south of Chartres near Thivars, between the kilometre stones 101 and 102 (now N10). Despite heavy rain, Vanderbilt achieved 33 4/5 seconds over the flying kilometre, and Bishop 36 flat. 

Then, the party took lunch at Chartres where they were joined by Rothschild, and decided to use another piece of road in the afternoon, between Ablis and Saint-Arnoult (now D988), between the stones 38 and 37. Tampier took place by the side of Bishop, Gaudichard by the side of Rothschild, and Édouard Nobilé (correspondent for the newspaper L'Auto) by the side of Vanderbilt. Following several trials, Vanderbilt achieved 32 2/5 (111 km/h), Bishop 36, and Rothschild 36 4/5. Later in the afternoon, the weight of Vanderbilt's Forty was checked by the ACF in Paris, 930 kg. (Serpollet in his steamer had just achieved 29 4/5 on the Promenade des Anglais at Nice.)

This piece of road between Ablis and Saint-Arnoult was part of the course used for the Coupe des Voiturettes. 

 

On Tuesday morning, 5 August 1902, Vanderbilt was back at Ablis, but at the wheel of his 9.2-litre Mors and on the western side of Ablis, on the stretch between Ablis and Chartres (now D910). Vanderbilt achieved 31, 30 4/5 and 30 4/5 in three trials. Then, he completed a flying mile in 48 2/5 (nearly 120 km/h). On Tuesday afternoon, Vanderbilt achieved 29 2/5 (122.48 km/h) over the kilometre, a new absolute record, beating Serpollet.

Among the spectators was the son of the mayor of Saint-Arnoult, and he suggested a better stretch of road, a four-kilometre stretch between Saint-Arnoult and Dourdan (now D836). Tampier and Gaudichard immediately had a look, and the road between Saint-Arnoult and Dourdan became the piece of road used for the "kilomètre à Dourdan" (kilometre stones, etc.. described for example in La France Automobile/1902/page 744). This was the stretch used by Fournier and Augières in the fall of 1902. 

This stretch between Saint-Arnoult and Dourdan was not part of the Coupe des Voiturettes course.

[robert dick]

Critérium de Régularité:

 

https://anno.onb.ac....9060805&seite=4

 

... nine pages

 

https://anno.onb.ac....060805&seite=12

 

[Doug Nye]

So Saturday 21st July start from Spa for the Criterium then.  Thank you yet again, gentlemen.  (having now found the extensive event report in my bound copies of 'La France Automobile' I just cannot fathom how I overlooked it previously...  Must try harder not to turn over several pages at once).

 

Thanks Robert for the added context.  The detail you provide on the different Dourdan sprint courses is intriguing and - as always - fascinating.

 

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 29 September 2023 - 19:50.

[robert dick]

Of interest because "Le Critérium" was arranged/backed by the newspaper Les Sports:

 

Entries

https://www.retronew.../4350/5398934/1

 

Le Criterium

https://www.retronew.../4350/5399012/1

https://www.retronew.../4350/5399012/2

 

https://www.retronew.../4350/5399014/1

 

etc.../suivant = next issue

 

https://www.retronew.../4350/5398996/1