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The 'betrayal' of Brooklands and its role in developing British motor racing [split]


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#1 D-Type

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Posted 18 October 2023 - 13:11

This article from The Autocar, published, for obvious reasons, immediately after VE Day, describes - in some detail - the alterations which had been made to Brooklands by Vickers. It's a much more realistic assessment than those made by the likes of Bill Boddy (in his Brooklands history and ad nauseam in Motor Sport) and John Bolster (in his autobiography) in later years. WB and others built up a myth about the 'betrayal of Brooklands in 1945' which persists today - close reading of both the specialist and national press of the time tells a very different story and it is pretty obvious that its fate was sealed by at least mid-1943. Cutting a long and complicated story short, if Brooklands' owners had not sold the site to Vickers at the end of 1945, it was 99% certain that the government would have purchased it under new legislation which allowed them to pay only its value at 1939 prices. Cumulative UK inflation between 1939 and 1945 was roughly 50% ...

 

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Despite the enthusiasm of WB and others, I think the reality is that Brooklands was out of date well before the outbreak of WW2.  This is apparent from the BARC etc feeling the need to create the Mountain Circuit and Campbell Circuit as an alternative to the banked oval. People continued to race there because it was all they had apart from Donington and the newly opened  Crystal Palace.


Edited by D-Type, 06 November 2023 - 00:08.
Split from the 'Circuits damaged in WW2' thread'


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#2 Vitesse2

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Posted 18 October 2023 - 14:37

Despite the enthusiasm of WB and others, I think the reality is that Brooklands was out of date well before the outbreak of WW2.  This is apparent from the BARC etc feeling the need to create the mountain Circuit and Campbell Circuit as an alternative to the banked oval. People continued to race there because it was all they had apart from Donnington and the newly opened  Crystal Palace.

Oh, there's no doubt there, Duncan. The more realistic had known that for years. Tim Birkin had called it ‘the most out-of-date, inadequate and dangerous track in the world’ in his 1932 book Full Throttle. Rodney Walkerley absolutely hated the place and quite a few drivers just didn't want to risk their cars on the terrible surface - especially in Outer Circuit handicaps 'which have never failed to bore us in the past', as an anonymous writer signing himself 'Spectator' put it in The Motor in January 1943. My suspicion is that the section from the start of the Byfleet Banking to The Fork was the worst bit!



#3 Sterzo

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Posted 18 October 2023 - 16:46

We can add T.P. Cholmondoley Tapper to the names of drivers who didn't think much of Brooklands, though typically I can't locate the quote in his book.



#4 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 19 October 2023 - 08:17

Oh, there's no doubt there, Duncan. The more realistic had known that for years. Tim Birkin had called it ‘the most out-of-date, inadequate and dangerous track in the world’ in his 1932 book Full Throttle. Rodney Walkerley absolutely hated the place and quite a few drivers just didn't want to risk their cars on the terrible surface - especially in Outer Circuit handicaps 'which have never failed to bore us in the past', as an anonymous writer signing himself 'Spectator' put it in The Motor in January 1943. My suspicion is that the section from the start of the Byfleet Banking to The Fork was the worst bit!

I too have read those prewar quotes. Wether it was the general consensus is another matter but I suspect the cars were going too fast by then. And parts of the track had subsided as well



#5 RCH

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Posted 19 October 2023 - 09:02

It has always seemed to me that Brooklands held back British racing car development. Had so many people not been apparently content with Brooklands showing the British way of motor racing rather than that damned foreign stuff would British international success have come much sooner? 



#6 Doug Nye

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Posted 19 October 2023 - 09:05

There is a time and a place for all things.

 

Brooklands' time had certainly long-since passed.  And in any case its truly significant history place in 20th century history proved to reside more in aviation than in motor sport - most pinnacle-level 'Brooklands cars' being a complete anachronism anywhere else.

 

Possibly not the most popular statement to make, but one I have long considered true.

 

DCN


Edited by Doug Nye, 19 October 2023 - 18:42.


#7 Vitesse2

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Posted 19 October 2023 - 11:40

It has always seemed to me that Brooklands held back British racing car development. Had so many people not been apparently content with Brooklands showing the British way of motor racing rather than that damned foreign stuff would British international success have come much sooner? 

Neatly summed up in just one sentence: "By comparison with other European countries, Britain is sadly handicapped as far as motor sport - especially motor racing - is concerned." Light Car editor FJ 'Eric' Findon, writing about British racing in the book 'Power and Speed' (Temple Press, 1938).

 

The two previous chapters are by Prince Chula on International 1500cc racing and Rodney Walkerley on Grand Prix racing ...

 

An excellent book, BTW, covering speed on land, in the air and on water. Not expensive, either.



#8 GazChed

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Posted 19 October 2023 - 12:42

Surely, what held back British motor racing wasn't Brooklands but the fact that the authorities wouldn't allow racing on public roads. There was no precedent for building a motor racing circuit so for inspiration Hugh Locke-King looked to racecourses and in particular I suspect, nearby Sandown Park.

Over the years many different circuits were used in an attempt to replicate road racing until the Campbell circuit was built giving Brooklands it's own road course. Don't forget, in the years following Brooklands birth several other Oval circuits followed Brooklands example including Indianapolis, Montlhery and Sitges. It just happened that Grand Prix racing tended to take place on genuine road circuits rather than circuits like Brooklands.

#9 Vitesse2

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Posted 19 October 2023 - 14:19

Surely, what held back British motor racing wasn't Brooklands but the fact that the authorities wouldn't allow racing on public roads. There was no precedent for building a motor racing circuit so for inspiration Hugh Locke-King looked to racecourses and in particular I suspect, nearby Sandown Park.

And whether by accident or design you've hit the nail firmly on the head there. Brooklands just imported horse racing terminology and tradition. Steward, clerk of the course, paddock, drivers in early meetings being identified by coloured 'silks' rather than numbers, handicapping, calling the open-sided paddock garages 'stalls', scoreboards that looked like those on racecourses, bookmakers ...

 

Certainly there was no (real) precedent, apart from velodromes, which were also ovals, sometimes banked. But even they had only existed for a couple of decades - and motorcycles and motor tricycles were already raced on them. An unbanked oval was actually built at Aspendale in Australia in 1906, although it didn't last long and I doubt Locke-King knew of it.

 

Over the years many different circuits were used in an attempt to replicate road racing until the Campbell circuit was built giving Brooklands it's own road course. Don't forget, in the years following Brooklands birth several other Oval circuits followed Brooklands example including Indianapolis, Montlhery and Sitges. It just happened that Grand Prix racing tended to take place on genuine road circuits rather than circuits like Brooklands.

If the Campbell Circuit had been built in 1927 rather than 1937 the story would be different. But you would still have had to overcome the inbuilt and ingrained insistence on handicap rather than scratch racing.

 

Yes, other ovals were built after Brooklands. But only Indianapolis can be considered a success - and even it was in the doldrums in the late 1920s, saved only by the so-called 'Junk Formula'. Monza's and Montlhéry's ovals were used almost exclusively for long-distance record attempts - not an option at Brooklands due to noise restrictions, the night running ban instituted in 1907 after Edge's 24-hour record and a total ban on Sunday running. Sitges was a financial disaster. Aspendale did a bit better in its second and third iterations, but - with all due respect to our Aussie members - it was hardly mainstream and pretty much outshone by road racing.



#10 Doug Nye

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Posted 19 October 2023 - 14:32

Don't misunderstand my original post.  There was a place for Brooklands - at the time of its launch, in 1907 - but its meaningful and truly useful period in major-league motor racing (and motor industry) terms was not long at all.  Regardless, the undoubted place it occupied in many British enthusiasts' hearts is properly sustained today.  While its historic significance - and within what areas - certainly remain debatable, its overall stature as an historic British monument should never be dismissed. Never.

 

DCN



#11 FlyingSaucer

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Posted 19 October 2023 - 19:40

 

Yes, other ovals were built after Brooklands. But only Indianapolis can be considered a success - and even it was in the doldrums in the late 1920s, saved only by the so-called 'Junk Formula'. Monza's and Montlhéry's ovals were used almost exclusively for long-distance record attempts - not an option at Brooklands due to noise restrictions, the night running ban instituted in 1907 after Edge's 24-hour record and a total ban on Sunday running. Sitges was a financial disaster. Aspendale did a bit better in its second and third iterations, but - with all due respect to our Aussie members - it was hardly mainstream and pretty much outshone by road racing.

 

The problem is that one of the original (if not the main) features/objectives planned for the Brooklands circuit was to become a place for speed records and vehicle tests, removing these dangerous experimental cars from public roads.

 

However, as everyone now knows, when the circuit was inaugurated, it was soon realized that this would not work, due to the uneven surface of the track - this fact alone condemned the track in the long term, because it was known that without the support/interest of the car manufacturers, the track would not be sustainable.

 

This complements the fact that, as far as I know, the inaugural Brooklands race in 1907 was a resounding failure, with just over 4000 in attendance at the huge circuit. The public hated the race, the press hated the race, and, it was a huge blow to the organizers.
 
Another point was that there was no class division or handicap system in the track until 1908, which basically decreed for a year that the fastest car would always win the race (at a time when there wasn't much 'standards' between vehicles and engines).
 
 
 
Btw, I am a huge fan of Brooklands, but I have to admit that there were many flaws in the project's design.

Edited by FlyingSaucer, 19 October 2023 - 19:43.


#12 Sterzo

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Posted 20 October 2023 - 10:04

By the thirties, Brooklands was like an eccentric addition to the Pall Mall gentleman's clubs. The "right crowd" enjoyed themselves and there's nothing wrong with that. I'm sure it constrained British racing by being so insular, but it also left a legacy to be enjoyed by those of us in the UK. Its wealthy participants assembled an amazing collection of top-line racing cars which formed the basis of the wonderful VSCC racing which continues to this day.



#13 DCapps

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Posted 20 October 2023 - 12:26

In the Spring of 1905, the Morris Park race track in The Bronx was extensively reworked for the purpose of being used for automobile racing. On 20 and 21 April 1907 the Lakeside Inn near San Diego constructed a course (roughly two miles in length) around the resort's featured lake, Linda Lake, for the express purpose of hosting automobile racing. Barney Oldfield was the main draw for the meeting, of course. Brooklands feature was that it was paved, rather than an unpaved course like Morris Park and Lakeside.



#14 Jim Thurman

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Posted 20 October 2023 - 18:12

In the Spring of 1905, the Morris Park race track in The Bronx was extensively reworked for the purpose of being used for automobile racing. On 20 and 21 April 1907 the Lakeside Inn near San Diego constructed a course (roughly two miles in length) around the resort's featured lake, Linda Lake, for the express purpose of hosting automobile racing. Barney Oldfield was the main draw for the meeting, of course. Brooklands feature was that it was paved, rather than an unpaved course like Morris Park and Lakeside.

Don, thanks for mentioning these. Lakeside in particular seems to get overlooked, especially with the belief that the Wisconsin State Fairgrounds track is "oldest." A quick correction, it's Lindo Lake in Lakeside.

https://hiddensandie...aces/lindo-lake



#15 Doug Nye

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Posted 20 October 2023 - 20:40

The American use of the word 'paved' always sounds peculiar to we Brits on our island.  Here 'paved' is essentially specific to being surfaced with multiple relatively small-area individual paving slabs.  In contrast 'Surfaced' or 'hard-surfaced' infers that the road or track topping is formed by a continuous and contiguous mix, such as tarmac/asphalt.  We know darned well what you mean - but it just jars.  Vive la difference as those other people say.  We have more in common than most... just look at chaotic government?   :smoking:

 

DCN


Edited by Doug Nye, 20 October 2023 - 20:40.


#16 robert dick

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Posted 21 October 2023 - 10:52

The Motor World/New York wrote on 4 July 1907:

"Had the Brooklands motordrome been equipped with a live American press agent, the enormity of the undertaking which it represents probably would not have impinged so suddenly on the American public, as has proven the case. Until this week, and for nearly a year, Weybridge and the Brooklands track have been mythical entities in the automobile offing, gaining mention only because the first motor track in England was scheduled for completion before the first motor speedway in America. Now there appears in actual evidence the biggest track ever constructed for racing purposes - the first cemented course ever laid down for the purpose of automobile contests, which as an engineering undertaking, is really a very big thing. More than that, it is apparent that its promotors and patrons, with characteristic faith in a glittering idea, have sunken a prodigous amount of capital in what is largely an experiment. But whether their light has come from an icicle or from a true crystal, as they fancy, the fact remains that their track has unfolded wonderful new possibilities."

If "equipped with a live American press agent", would Brooklands have survived, just like the Indy speedway?

= = = =

In November 1907, an association was formed in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, to build a 2.5-mile concrete and cinder oval similar to the Brooklands track. The Quaker City motordrome was to be 100 feet wide on the straights with an additional 25 feet through the turns. The turns were to be a quarter of a mile long with a banking of 30 percent. The track was to be located on a 213-acre tract of land at Llanerch, Delaware county. The project was backed by Louis Bergdoll, the millionaire brewer and head of the Bergdoll Motor Car Co. of Philadelphia.
The project was called off.
 


Edited by robert dick, 21 October 2023 - 10:53.


#17 Doug Nye

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Posted 21 October 2023 - 17:19

I am confident that in his later years poor, eager-to-impress, eager-to-be-accepted, Hugh Locke-King - or Locke King - quite possibly would have wished that he had taken the same decision...

 

DCN


Edited by Doug Nye, 21 October 2023 - 17:22.


#18 flatlandsman

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Posted 21 October 2023 - 19:56

Was watching the fabulous talk by Mr Pittaway about the FIAT earlier, ironically at Brooklands, and even in that the guys back then were saying that the speeds they later managed were not possible at Brooklands, so poor was it in condition. 

 

it is a fabulous place, but as Doug says far more relevant to recent aviation than motoring, though it should always hold a special place in any British race fans life.  Also sadly it seems Montherley  (no idea how to spell it sorry) might be destined for closure, it is 100 years next year, Duncan is going in the beast, but it might be done after that, 



#19 Vitesse2

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Posted 21 October 2023 - 20:46

In period Montlhéry was a financial failure. Bankrupt twice and only saved from a third when the French Ministry of Defence bought it for a knockdown price in 1939. Brooklands at least avoided bankruptcy, but I doubt the Locke-King family saw any meaningful return on the investment: when it was floated as a limited company in 1936, with a share capital of £292000, the underwriters had found themselves left with 81% of the shares - less than 4% of the issue had been sold to companies with interests in the motor or aviation industries, which rather negates statements by Boddy, Howe and others in 1945 and 1946 that it was important to the motor industry for testing. This February 1946 piece - from Harold C Brown of the Irish Times, quoting what was apparently private correspondence from the motoring correspondent of the Sunday Times in London - neatly sums up the arguments:

 

The leading manufacturers in England are unanimous that a high-speed track fails to provide them with the data they require for the development of their wares. For export markets, where extremes of climatic conditions prevail … hot and cold chambers in a works laboratory are far better producers of technical dividends than is capital invested in a track. Equally, sustained full-throttle engine tests are better conducted on a brake bed than on a car hurtling around an artificial banked circuit.

 

There is a shadow of suspicion that motor racing enthusiasts are trying to obtain a venue for their activities by stressing the technical advantages of high-speed track testing. American manufacturers, one of whom admittedly has a 'proving ground' but who mostly are content with laboratory and road tests have not suffered from the lack of a Brooklands or its counterpart.

At the same time, the government were nurturing the creation of MIRA - the Motor Industry Research Association - which was essentially a nationalised rebranding of some of the functions of the existing Institution of Automobile Engineers, which would itself soon amalgamate with the Institution of Mechanical Engineers. MIRA initially operated from the IAE's laboratories in Brentford, before moving to the disused RAF Lindley, near Nuneaton, which was one of several considered as a possible race circuit in the late 1940s. MIRA did initially suggest their test track might be suitable for racing, but it was later specifically ruled out - although that was before, not after, Cameron C Earl was killed there testing an ERA in 1952.

 

Brooklands was of course very convenient for the London-based press - less so for the Midlands motor manufacturers ...



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#20 10kDA

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Posted 22 October 2023 - 02:29

Don, thanks for mentioning these. Lakeside in particular seems to get overlooked, especially with the belief that the Wisconsin State Fairgrounds track is "oldest." A quick correction, it's Lindo Lake in Lakeside.

https://hiddensandie...aces/lindo-lake

Right, the publicists have been routinely leaving out the "...still in use" part of the Fair Park's "oldest" description.



#21 DCapps

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Posted 22 October 2023 - 21:42

The Motor World/New York wrote on 4 July 1907:

"Had the Brooklands motordrome been equipped with a live American press agent, the enormity of the undertaking which it represents probably would not have impinged so suddenly on the American public, as has proven the case. Until this week, and for nearly a year, Weybridge and the Brooklands track have been mythical entities in the automobile offing, gaining mention only because the first motor track in England was scheduled for completion before the first motor speedway in America. Now there appears in actual evidence the biggest track ever constructed for racing purposes - the first cemented course ever laid down for the purpose of automobile contests, which as an engineering undertaking, is really a very big thing. More than that, it is apparent that its promotors and patrons, with characteristic faith in a glittering idea, have sunken a prodigous amount of capital in what is largely an experiment. But whether their light has come from an icicle or from a true crystal, as they fancy, the fact remains that their track has unfolded wonderful new possibilities."

If "equipped with a live American press agent", would Brooklands have survived, just like the Indy speedway?

= = = =

In November 1907, an association was formed in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, to build a 2.5-mile concrete and cinder oval similar to the Brooklands track. The Quaker City motordrome was to be 100 feet wide on the straights with an additional 25 feet through the turns. The turns were to be a quarter of a mile long with a banking of 30 percent. The track was to be located on a 213-acre tract of land at Llanerch, Delaware county. The project was backed by Louis Bergdoll, the millionaire brewer and head of the Bergdoll Motor Car Co. of Philadelphia.
The project was called off.
 

 

The Automobile, 12 December 1907, has the Philadelphia area project as one of many such being tossed about. It suggests that the track was to be a two-mile concrete and cinder oval located in Lianerch, located on the West Chester Pike, roughly two miles from the Sixty-Nonth Street terminal and the Market Street elevated road.

 

There were probably dozens of these projects floated in the USA around this time. Van Walling put together a listing of these proposals as I recall and it was a lot more than I realized.



#22 Jim Thurman

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Posted 24 October 2023 - 20:40

Right, the publicists have been routinely leaving out the "...still in use" part of the Fair Park's "oldest" description.

Unfortunately, there are plenty of times where it devolved from leaving out the "still in use" to somehow become "The first auto race track built in the United States."



#23 Michael Ferner

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Posted 04 November 2023 - 18:47

 

The problem is that one of the original (if not the main) features/objectives planned for the Brooklands circuit was to become a place for speed records and vehicle tests, removing these dangerous experimental cars from public roads.

 

However, as everyone now knows, when the circuit was inaugurated, it was soon realized that this would not work, due to the uneven surface of the track - this fact alone condemned the track in the long term, because it was known that without the support/interest of the car manufacturers, the track would not be sustainable.

 

This complements the fact that, as far as I know, the inaugural Brooklands race in 1907 was a resounding failure, with just over 4000 in attendance at the huge circuit. The public hated the race, the press hated the race, and, it was a huge blow to the organizers.
 
Another point was that there was no class division or handicap system in the track until 1908, which basically decreed for a year that the fastest car would always win the race (at a time when there wasn't much 'standards' between vehicles and engines).
 

 

Actually, there were almost as many 'class divisions' as there were races at Brooklands in 1907, the rules changed (if mostly marginally) from event to event until the introduction of the 'standard' classes for four-inch, five-inch, six-one-eighth and seven-a-half inch cars in fall. I count a total of 35 races (including all heat, match, handicap, "claimer" and one-make races) during the five meetings in its inaugural year, which produced twenty different winners from twelve different manufacturers, so the variety was there, no problem. Also, "the fastest car would always win", isn't that the main objective of motor racing, as a sport, in the first place? Attendance wasn't very high, reportedly between 2,000 for the Summer meeting and 10,000 for the one in September, but it was generally adjudged adequate, and produced cash flow, along with the 1-sovereign admission fee to the 'enclosure', an early form of paddock pass. Would an 'American-type' press agent have helped to draw in the crowds? How many people in the area were willing and able to pay so much money for a motor race meeting? I suspect that was a big part of the problem, the circuit management addressed potential customers from the nearby city and was looking for affluent people with the means to purchase a car, not necessarily for big numbers. 'The right crowd, and no crowding' probably had its roots in this early policy of admission prices, and together with a few other Brooklands peculiarities it eventually doomed the whole project.
 
Looking at it from the perspective of 1907, and trying not to take every statement (especially by car manufacturers!) at face value, one has to consider the following: 1) motor racing had already proven popular, with huge crowds at many events in the past, 2) manufacturers were finding races a useful tool for testing of existing hardware as well as new ideas and, not least of all, publicity. Would motor racing have survived without manufacturer support? Definitely, it had lots of appeal for spectators as well as competitors, but it may have taken a few more extra turns for it to find its feet, especially in the wake of events like Paris-Madrid or other PR disasters of that ilk. The car clubs did their work, of course, but in those years they were often merely acting as lobbyists for the industry as a whole, so primarily another component in the tool box of the manufactureres, and the big question of the time was: WHERE can we go racing on a REGULAR basis? Road racing was generally fine, but there were problems with availability and sustainability on a long term basis, while racing on horse tracks had so many disadvantages that it was barely even tried this side of the big pond. Governments were reluctant to put up big public money, despite all lobbying, and that wouldn't change much until the Nürburgring was built twenty years later (which was a wonderous thing in itself, and - as a public enterprise - is so far still inadequately covered in enough detail!).
 
No, the only way forward was a permanent track built by private enterprise, with the industry 'pledging' support, of course - always going to be a 'tricky' thing! And let's not forget, the track paving (sorry, Doug - surfacing!) was another item that had to be tested, along with the cars, as it was by no means clear yet which way to go forward on that matter, also for roads! I don't go along at all with the above quoted sentiment that the Brooklands track surface was a problem, not until many years later, and more to do with (a lack of) maintenance and upkeep than any inherent fault of the concept. In fact, concrete is still used today in the building of motorways in this country and several others, and though it does have its problems it's by no means a no-go. Period articles, especially from the US make it clear that the motoring world was expectantly watching the 'experiment' in England in order to draw conclusions. And, in much the same way as at Weybridge, new 'speedways' were built in the US over the following years, incidentally with a lively mix of surfacing: Indianapolis, Atlanta, Playa del Rey...
 
Basically all of them failed, many within a very short time, except for Indianapolis. Richard is right in saying that even that track had its problems during the twenties, but it wasn't exactly "saved by the junk formula" as much as it was able to survive in spite of it, as I have tried to demonstrate in another thread on this forum. But Indianapolis serves well as an example of how these things can go wrong, as it was built with similar objectives to the Brooklands track - in those days, the city of Indianapolis was the centre of automotive production in the US, and it was deemed advisable to provide the local car companies with a track on which to test their products, only for those same companies to fail to put the money where their mouth was - there was hardly any industry testing activity going on at Indianapolis, ever! So, how DID the track survive? By the clever (or: lucky?) idea of the track management to stage 'autoracing for the masses': the Indy 500 was a cash cow from day one, and knew only one way of development, it grew and grew and grew over the years. The only kink in the road was the fact that Carl Fisher had tired of his own success by the early twenties, and his vivid imagination had long since taken another direction for him to follow, but the business model was as sound as ever, and proved to be just that in the hands of its next owner.
 
And Brooklands? You can find within period newspapers in the Letters to the Editor section glowing acclaim for Brooklands, and within even half of the first sentence you recognize the unmistakable style and know that the letter will be signed, "S. F. Edge", yet even Napier stopped any serious activity at the track soon after 1907, while other manufacturers basically didn't even bother to start. Testing at Brooklands was a dead duck in the water, right from the beginning, and it's the same old story: companies (and especially car companies) encourage private and public enterprise to build infrastructure they don't really need, but would like to have if somebody else could be found to put up the money! In Locke King they found the proper dunce to pick up the bill, and that was basically as far as their interest in the project took them, with the ultimate verdict: "No, we don't really need it, after all". All that was left for Brooklands was a bunch of society rich kids, with an assortment of fast cars, eager to spend a few weekends between hunting trips with a mix of high-speed pissing contests and binge betting. The beginning of the Historic Racing scene? Perhaps, but hardly mattering at all to the outside world.
 
By some coincidence, 1907 also saw the first professional motorcycle races taking place in the Isle of Man, after earlier 'tests' there to determine the British contingent for the 1905 International Cup races in France, similar to the Gordon-Bennett elimination trials for cars the day before. While the roads on the Manx island had been used extensively for the "Tourist Trophy" car races over the next few years, and occasionally thereafter, the 'bikes' took the Island by storm, and never left. The result? TOTAL BRITISH DOMINATION of worldwide motorcycle racing and production over the next half century, nothing less! How did the British auto industry look at the 'bikies'? Could they have done as well if not for Brooklands?? Bad management???


#24 Doug Nye

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Posted 04 November 2023 - 19:45

Bad management?  Hah - from around the 1880s forward, Great Britain's middle name.

 

DCN



#25 Vitesse2

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Posted 04 November 2023 - 21:55

Regarding testing by manufacturers in the Edwardian era, I'd submit that Brooklands was the right idea in the wrong place. Weybridge was already quite an up-market place, even before the development of St George's Hill, which commenced at about the same time as Brooklands was built. This was of course before the vast expansion of suburbia, but there were then vast tracts of more suitable land to the west of London - although much of it was still agricultural. If a site had to be near London, then surely somewhere along the Great West Road like Hounslow or Harmondsworth would have been better - or maybe even in the 'Essex triangle' bounded by Romford, Southend and Chelmsford.

 

And there were of course countless tyro car builders all over the country, but it was already becoming clear that the most successful were not based on London and the Home Counties and that places with established medium and heavy engineering expertise - mainly in the Midlands - were also destined to host the majority of the biggest car companies. Ford were based in Essex, but didn't arrive until 1909. Building a dedicated test track at (say) Redditch or Meriden would have made a lot more sense for Wolseley, Austin, Riley, Hillman, Humber, Singer ...

 

Although whether you could have attracted people to a race track there is another matter!

 

There were, incidentally, suggestions in 1945-46 that - assuming the army would release it and the Shields family agreed - that a high-speed oval for testing and racing could be built at Donington Park as an adjunct to the existing track, maybe even as a joint facility with the army. The government did look at this, but when MIRA decided they wanted a dedicated facility, that idea was dead in the water. The ownership situation of Donington is interesting, BTW; when John Gillies Shields died in 1943 he left the estate to his grandson, John Gillies Shields Jr, who was at that time serving in the army. However, it appears that the will stated that he would not come into his full inheritance until the age of 35 and in the mean time the estate was to be managed on his behalf by three trustees - his father and aunt and a local solicitor. They seem to have been unwilling to take decisions of that magnitude. And since John Gillies Shields Jr was born in 1919, he had until 1954 to think about what he wanted to do with the place ...



#26 Derwent Motorsport

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Posted 05 November 2023 - 09:44

Why was there no effort to resurface or skim Brooklands in the 30s? I know we had the Campbell Circuit but surely a  lot more could have been done on what was a huge blank canvas? 



#27 Doug Nye

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Posted 05 November 2023 - 10:22

How would such work be funded so soon after the Depression years?  

 

Nobody had the stomach - nor wherewithal - seriously to attempt such action. At best all they could fund was small-area springtime repair to the previous winter's worst frost and/or flood damage.

 

Brooklands was already being sustained as much by personal enthusiasm on behalf of many individual supporters as by any financial 'master plan'. It had long been a case of what's one of those?

 

The Campbell Circuit itself was both a bold and optimistic development which in reality did little to attract any larger crowds than had previously been the case. In effect the entire motor sporting activity at the site was at best on life support - as in reality it had been since at least the Armistice in 1919.  Any notion of "brash American-style promotion" a la Indy and the US speedway scene, for example - with financial profit the prime target - was so foreign to contemporary British sporting-body mentality and mindset as to be a simple case of "does not compute" or "instruction not recognised".

 

Here was our version of the long unmentioned commercial reality of early road racing on immensely long courses or circuits in continental Europe.  

 

The leading events there were long regarded as being worthwhile simply in terms of confirming competitive prestige on behalf of the organising body or nation first, participating manufacturers or brands second.

 

A late French luminary of the ACF itself once admitted to me how, beyond involved manufacturers, organisers and the Government itself what was really irresistible about race organisation was more about "la politique de la gloire" ("the politics of glory") than anything to do with sensible economic reality.  How possibly could one charge every spectator for the privilege of watching a city-to-city race entry go by (just once) - or an early Grand Prix on a 45-65-mile circuit?  In practical terms restricted-entry/tickets-required roadside spectator areas could at best only be few and far between.

 

But, along the way, oh what fun it must have been.  

 

Which in Brooklands' case 1907-1939 was surely made possible purely by its owners' and promoters' addiction to OPM - Other People's Money.   :cool:

 

DCN



#28 Vitesse2

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Posted 05 November 2023 - 11:29

Why was there no effort to resurface or skim Brooklands in the 30s? I know we had the Campbell Circuit but surely a  lot more could have been done on what was a huge blank canvas? 

Although it was - as you say - a huge blank canvas, it's not generally realised that Brooklands (Weybridge) Ltd, the company formed in 1936 to manage the site, did not actually own the entire infield area until various property deals were done in 1943. They sold off 1½ acres outside its boundaries for £2386 and purchased 35½ acres of land from the local authority for £5085 - just over £143 per acre. Some of this land had been under option since 1906 (I'm guessing the freehold of the sewage works might have been part of this purchase!) and this meant that they finally now owned the complete site - a total of 381 acres. Vickers Armstrong paid £330,000 for the site - for part of which they had presumably previously been paying rent. That was above the £292,000 share capital - although that was of course worth a lot less in 1945 pounds and the shares don't seem to have paid a dividend after 1938. The sale price equates to £866 per acre.



#29 P0wderf1nger

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Posted 06 November 2023 - 10:15

Here's what Whitney Straight wrote in his forward to a little paperback on Brooklands, written by PJ Wallace and published in 1971.

 

'In 1939 we were at the limit of safety on the banked circuit and indeed on the Campbell circuit. By 1945 the track surface had deteriorated beyond acceptable limits, and car design had progressed to the point where track racing on aerodrome type circuits offered much more scope for for spectacle, and also indeed to the designer to develop suspension systems, brakes and tyres. So after the war it was decided not to re-open the track - a wise decision, I would say. While clearly in the early days Brooklands was of tremendous importance to motor manufacturers, especially to the makers of accessories, tyres, fuel, carburettors and so on, since nowhere else could they drive their cars at continuous speed; as time went on and Continental contest became more popular, the track grew less important. Today the makers prefer the privacy of their own test tracks ... However regrettable to have to admit it, it is pure sentiment to believe that motor racing would have benefited with the re-opening of the track.'    



#30 P0wderf1nger

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Posted 06 November 2023 - 10:33

Don's use of the word 'paved' does have a certain resonance with Brooklands, insofar as ruddy great concrete slabs were used - and therin lay the problem. They cracked, they subsided, and they made for an exceedingly bumpy circuit, in need of frequent maintenance..

 

By way of contrast, Monthlery had the benefit of being built 17 years later, on a larger patch of land: a better-constructed, smoother oval and a meaningful road circuit laid outside rather than within the oval. 



#31 Vitesse2

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Posted 06 November 2023 - 11:48

 

How did the British auto industry look at the 'bikies'? Could they have done as well if not for Brooklands?? Bad management???

 

Well, most of the riders hadn't gone to the right schools and universities. Fernihough was an Oxford man, so he was okay with the BARC chappies, but Dixon was - ugh! - working class. And from the North. I think it's likely that similar attitudes existed in the industry.

 

If I'm remembering Charles Mortimer's autobiographical books correctly, bikers weren't even allowed into the Brooklands clubhouse and had to trek up the Test Hill to the Bluebird Café for a cup of tea or a sandwich; if you were lucky, your crockery might even match!
 

 

Bad management?  Hah - from around the 1880s forward, Great Britain's middle name.

 

DCN

Ah, but they were the right sort, Doug. Which is what mattered! And as we've seen recently it's still working so well ... :rolleyes:

 

Here's what Whitney Straight wrote in his forward to a little paperback on Brooklands, written by PJ Wallace and published in 1971.   

Thanks for the reminder, Paul. I'd forgotten Whitney wrote the intro to that. Must dig out my copy.
 



#32 RAP

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Posted 07 November 2023 - 13:45

What was Brooklands' financial structure? 

Who owned it.

Did visiting clubs like JCC rent the track?

Someone told me that the spectator viewing and facilities at Brooklands were pretty poor. Is this so?

 

By the way, in contrast nearby Crystal Palace was run as a commercial operation to make money for the promoters. This it did by putting on short, sharp programmes on a Saturday afternoon timed so that men could go after working on Saturday morning, as many did at that time, rather akin to going to football with a 3.00 kick-off.



#33 Vitesse2

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Posted 07 November 2023 - 15:44

What was Brooklands' financial structure? 

Who owned it.

Did visiting clubs like JCC rent the track?

Someone told me that the spectator viewing and facilities at Brooklands were pretty poor. Is this so?

I assume Dame Ethel still owned it - or at least part of the site - until Brooklands (Weybridge) Ltd was floated in 1936 (Hugh had died in 1926). It presumably brought in a fair bit of rental income from the Aero Club, the BARC, Vickers, Hawker, Thomson & Taylor, Dick Nash and the others with premises on the grounds. As I posted above, less than 20% of the initial share offer was taken up, with most of the ones that had been sold going to private investors - many of whom would probably have lost money on it, having sold up during the war as the share price dropped. Malcolm Campbell was a major shareholder and apparently bought a lot at the bottom of the market in 1944-45, before turning a handsome profit on the sale. Reports of the company AGMs are of course pretty sketchy, but the only other reasonably well-known names from within the sport that I know of who were shareholders were Percy Bradley and 'Taso' Mathieson. A shareholder called Charles James Nichols objected to the sale at the meeting when it was officially announced, but I've not found any other names.

 

No idea on the financing of meetings, but Brooklands (Weybridge) Ltd was the only entity which could legally charge for spectator admission - presumably to avoid any possible fraud via opaque accounting of cash receipts.

 

Rodney Walkerley in The Motor, January 18th 1946:

 

 

… what the sporting public has lost is slightly more difficult to assess … there was a vague atmosphere that … lookers-on were apt to be there on sufferance and the racing took place in the distance … a day at Brooklands was a moderately expensive and fairly uncomfortable one for the general public. The amenities were not of the highest order. The facilities for watching the races were undoubtedly poor.

The toilets were notoriously bad and I've also highlighted the idiosyncrasies of the Bluebird Café above. Another Charles Mortimer story suggests that a favourite trick of some of its patrons was to stick pats of butter to the ceiling, so that when the heating kicked in they'd fall on unsuspecting customers below.



#34 FlyingSaucer

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Posted 09 November 2023 - 14:35

 

Actually, there were almost as many 'class divisions' as there were races at Brooklands in 1907, the rules changed (if mostly marginally) from event to event until the introduction of the 'standard' classes for four-inch, five-inch, six-one-eighth and seven-a-half inch cars in fall. I count a total of 35 races (including all heat, match, handicap, "claimer" and one-make races) during the five meetings in its inaugural year, which produced twenty different winners from twelve different manufacturers, so the variety was there, no problem. Also, "the fastest car would always win", isn't that the main objective of motor racing, as a sport, in the first place? Attendance wasn't very high, reportedly between 2,000 for the Summer meeting and 10,000 for the one in September, but it was generally adjudged adequate, and produced cash flow, along with the 1-sovereign admission fee to the 'enclosure', an early form of paddock pass. Would an 'American-type' press agent have helped to draw in the crowds? How many people in the area were willing and able to pay so much money for a motor race meeting? I suspect that was a big part of the problem, the circuit management addressed potential customers from the nearby city and was looking for affluent people with the means to purchase a car, not necessarily for big numbers. 'The right crowd, and no crowding' probably had its roots in this early policy of admission prices, and together with a few other Brooklands peculiarities it eventually doomed the whole project.
 
Looking at it from the perspective of 1907, and trying not to take every statement (especially by car manufacturers!) at face value, one has to consider the following: 1) motor racing had already proven popular, with huge crowds at many events in the past, 2) manufacturers were finding races a useful tool for testing of existing hardware as well as new ideas and, not least of all, publicity. Would motor racing have survived without manufacturer support? Definitely, it had lots of appeal for spectators as well as competitors, but it may have taken a few more extra turns for it to find its feet, especially in the wake of events like Paris-Madrid or other PR disasters of that ilk. The car clubs did their work, of course, but in those years they were often merely acting as lobbyists for the industry as a whole, so primarily another component in the tool box of the manufactureres, and the big question of the time was: WHERE can we go racing on a REGULAR basis? Road racing was generally fine, but there were problems with availability and sustainability on a long term basis, while racing on horse tracks had so many disadvantages that it was barely even tried this side of the big pond. Governments were reluctant to put up big public money, despite all lobbying, and that wouldn't change much until the Nürburgring was built twenty years later (which was a wonderous thing in itself, and - as a public enterprise - is so far still inadequately covered in enough detail!).
 
No, the only way forward was a permanent track built by private enterprise, with the industry 'pledging' support, of course - always going to be a 'tricky' thing! And let's not forget, the track paving (sorry, Doug - surfacing!) was another item that had to be tested, along with the cars, as it was by no means clear yet which way to go forward on that matter, also for roads! I don't go along at all with the above quoted sentiment that the Brooklands track surface was a problem, not until many years later, and more to do with (a lack of) maintenance and upkeep than any inherent fault of the concept. In fact, concrete is still used today in the building of motorways in this country and several others, and though it does have its problems it's by no means a no-go. Period articles, especially from the US make it clear that the motoring world was expectantly watching the 'experiment' in England in order to draw conclusions. And, in much the same way as at Weybridge, new 'speedways' were built in the US over the following years, incidentally with a lively mix of surfacing: Indianapolis, Atlanta, Playa del Rey...
 

 

Of course, motorsport has always been about speed, speed and more speed. If you have the fastest car, you obviously deserve to win. The point is that in the early 1900s, there wasn't much of standards for categories, simply because the cars were very different from each other. Yes, there was a separation by weight or cylinder capacity in the Grande Épreuves, but that didn't mean much, at a time when these concepts were still being understood in motorsport. Furthermore, car racing was an expensive sport at the time. Having an ordinary vehicle was already something reserved for a few - so it's worth wondering how many people actually had the means to buy a racing sports car. So bringing together a handful of private cars to hold a club meeting was already a feat, and obviously, not many concessions could be made regarding the type of car that would participate.

 

That's why the handicap system was so important until about the late 1920s - and Brooklands, in its first year, wasn't very enthusiastic about it. This changed when A.V. Ebblewhite was appointed the chief timekeeper of Brooklands in (if I´m not mistaken) June 1908.

 

And I may indeed have exaggerated talking about the initial failure of Brooklands. We have to take into account (as someone mentioned above) that closed circuits were still a novelty at that time. The popularity of cross-country and public track races like the Paris-Beijing, the Gordon Bennett and Vanderbilt Cup were sure to overshadow something different like Brooklands, at least until the closed circuits caught on the people´s attention.


Edited by FlyingSaucer, 11 November 2023 - 18:13.


#35 Allan Lupton

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Posted 09 November 2023 - 16:53

Some of us blame the existence of Brooklands for Britain's poor showing in international motor sport in the early days, as all the effort was put into designing track cars, rather than road-racers.

The concrete road surface would have been fine if it had been properly supported (as per the Famous German Autobahn) but, as it was not, it soon became very rough - and some would say that no car with a true Brooklands racing history has no cracks in its chassis!



#36 Vitesse2

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Posted 09 November 2023 - 17:31

Some of us blame the existence of Brooklands for Britain's poor showing in international motor sport in the early days, as all the effort was put into designing track cars, rather than road-racers.

The perhaps unintended consequence of that was the British domination of speed records, though. Not least because until the AIACR formed its own CSI in 1922 and took over the compilation and verification of them, the BARC and RAC were actually the ultimate authority, in the same way as the ACF's CSI had been for GP racing. The two-way speed record rules were written by Colonel Lindsay Lloyd in 1911 and until 1925 the only permanently verified timing apparatus was at Brooklands - if you attempted a record on another course, you had to get your timing gear verified as accurate to one hundredth of a second before the attempt. I think Campbell had one disallowed at Fanø because the Danes only sent the equipment to Paris afterwards? Even though it did prove to be accurate!

 

The AIACR's first official list of records - published in 1923 - was almost 100% Brooklands, with just three at Monza, set by Bordino in 1922. Those were for 600, 700 and 800 kilometres standing start, all at around 140km/h.



#37 P0wderf1nger

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Posted 09 November 2023 - 18:21

Some of us blame the existence of Brooklands for Britain's poor showing in international motor sport in the early days, as all the effort was put into designing track cars, rather than road-racers.

The concrete road surface would have been fine if it had been properly supported (as per the Famous German Autobahn) but, as it was not, it soon became very rough - and some would say that no car with a true Brooklands racing history has no cracks in its chassis!

 

Allan, you remind me of the ruddy great plates Amherst Villiers had to bolt to the side members of the Villiers Supercharge, to compensate for its many cracks and to give the chassis greater rigidity, albeit at the cost of more weight. And of the time Ray Mays and Peter Berthon took it round the Outer Circuit, four years after its last Brooklands appearance. They bounced so much that they each momentarily lost their vision, and never took the car near Brooklands again.  


Edited by P0wderf1nger, 09 November 2023 - 18:22.


#38 Vitesse2

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Posted 09 November 2023 - 19:53

Only one ERA was ever risked on the full Outer Circuit - 'Remus', after Chula and Bira sold it, driven by St John Horsfall. Another indicator that the Byfleet Banking was the roughest part? The Members' Banking was part of all the other layouts - the Mountain, the Campbell and the International Trophy course - and all of those saw plenty of ERAs over the years.

 

You have to wonder how well the 1939 Le Mans Lagondas, which had extensively drilled chassis for lightness, would have stood up to more than the one Brooklands meeting they took part in though!



#39 john aston

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Posted 11 November 2023 - 07:22

 January 18th 1946:

 

The toilets were notoriously bad and I've also highlighted the idiosyncrasies of the Bluebird Café above. Another Charles Mortimer story suggests that a favourite trick of some of its patrons was to stick pats of butter to the ceiling, so that when the heating kicked in they'd fall on unsuspecting customers below.

 When  I went to the Tyrrell event last summer I noticed with some amusement that some of the original toilets had been preserved for posterity , which has to be a first. They looked ...err....unremarkable and notable only for the urinal being in a ghastly shade of brown. But it did prompt a thought -my late father was no racing fan , but as a medical student in the 30s at UCL he did attend  The Track  with his chums. So I wondered , did he use this toilet and if he did can I put up a plaque ?  



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#40 Michael Ferner

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Posted 13 November 2023 - 09:08

Well, most of the riders hadn't gone to the right schools and universities. Fernihough was an Oxford man, so he was okay with the BARC chappies, but Dixon was - ugh! - working class. And from the North. I think it's likely that similar attitudes existed in the industry.

 

I'm sure you're right, but that's not at all what I meant. It was a (sort of) rhetorical question, how did the British automobile industry look at the all too obvious success of the 'little brother', and how did they in return explain away the lack of their own. I'm not sure it had to do with Brooklands and/or the Isle of Man, but the contrast is too stark to ignore.



#41 Michael Ferner

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Posted 13 November 2023 - 09:22

Of course, motorsport has always been about speed, speed and more speed. If you have the fastest car, you obviously deserve to win. The point is that in the early 1900s, there wasn't much of standards for categories, simply because the cars were very different from each other. Yes, there was a separation by weight or cylinder capacity in the Grande Épreuves, but that didn't mean much, at a time when these concepts were still being understood in motorsport. Furthermore, car racing was an expensive sport at the time. Having an ordinary vehicle was already something reserved for a few - so it's worth wondering how many people actually had the means to buy a racing sports car. So bringing together a handful of private cars to hold a club meeting was already a feat, and obviously, not many concessions could be made regarding the type of car that would participate.
 
That's why the handicap system was so important until about the late 1920s - and Brooklands, in its first year, wasn't very enthusiastic about it. This changed when A.V. Ebblewhite was appointed the chief timekeeper of Brooklands in (if I´m not mistaken) June 1908.
 
And I may indeed have exaggerated talking about the initial failure of Brooklands. We have to take into account (as someone mentioned above) that closed circuits were still a novelty at that time. The popularity of cross-country and public track races like the Paris-Beijing, the Gordon Bennett and Vanderbilt Cup were sure to overshadow something different like Brooklands, at least until the closed circuits caught on the people´s attention.

 
Not saying that you are grossly mistaken about the general direction of your post(s), but I singled out your initial one to reply to because it contains a fatal flaw which you repeat here, and that is that "there wasn't much of standards for categories" - there was, as I tried to explain already, and not only in "Grandes Epreuves". Here's a quick example from a 1907 newspaper showing a typical Brooklands preview with all the various different categories, plus for good measure a results panel for a hill climb with six different categories. It's large, yes, but makes for interesting reading, I think.

 

The 'true' reasons why Brooklands management went for handicap races all but exclusively had nothing to do with a conceived lack of suitable car categories, or with a lack of entries from private owners, rather the opposite. In any case, it definitely killed off any interest the car industry may still have had of racing at Brooklands.

 

 

1907.jpg


Edited by Michael Ferner, 13 November 2023 - 09:30.


#42 D-Type

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Posted 13 November 2023 - 15:28

Given that a sovereign is currently worth about £360 in today's money, the prize money appears very generous.  (Does the "sweepstake of . . . " mean entry fee.)  The different arrangements for each race suggest that the organisers were still feeling their way.



#43 Doug Nye

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Posted 13 November 2023 - 16:01

As far as emergent motor sport within Great Britain is concerned, 'racing' mentality within an almost uniformly standardised - and stratified - society was dominated by one thing alone - a couple of hundred years hugely successful experience of horse racing.  

 

From what I recall of long-ago conversations with veteran Brooklands people - Bill Boddy included though in his case merely as a late-arrival 'tween-wars observer - the convention of short-distance races with the potential result 'evened-out' or 'rendered fair' by some form of handicapping, was not at all based upon any serious debate nor comparison of various options.  

 

For many in positions of authority or influence over early British motor sport there was absolutely no question of whether or not the racing of motor cars should differ greatly from the racing of horses...the thinking was much more regimented, pre-programmed - well, much closer to involving no thought at all.

 

"THIS is how you race" - and that, like donning a hat before one ventured outdoors - or a mechanic tipping his cap and addressing an owner/ driver as 'sir' - or unquestioningly obeying a policeman (or a school-teacher) - was simply 'the way it's done'.

 

Alternative thinking was a too-often counter-productive and therefore unexplored luxury.  My father - born into a farm-labouring family in 1902 - operated happily under such pre-conditioning throughout his long life.  It was, after all, the mindset by which our forebears had built an empire.  By the time Dad was six years old - and already being worked pea-picking in the fields - to consider any fresh alternative would seem dangerously radical, something only practised "by Welsh people, or foreigners".   :smoking:

 

DCN



#44 Vitesse2

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Posted 13 November 2023 - 17:16

I'm sure you're right, but that's not at all what I meant. It was a (sort of) rhetorical question, how did the British automobile industry look at the all too obvious success of the 'little brother', and how did they in return explain away the lack of their own. I'm not sure it had to do with Brooklands and/or the Isle of Man, but the contrast is too stark to ignore.

I think Doug's 'Welsh people, or foreigners' comment is probably relevant here too. Or to appropriate Neville Chamberlain's 1938 reference post-Munich - it happened in 'a far away country between people of whom we know nothing.' Before the Great War British motor manufacturers - with the notable exception of Austin - don't seem to have taken GP racing seriously - and even Austin gave up quite quickly. Then between the wars there's only Sunbeam, who were essentially half-French (or maybe more) anyway. There may perhaps be an argument to be made that the way cars were taxed here had something to do with it - no incentive to build high-powered smaller engines as it wouldn't sell a small car to Mr Average in his nice new Tudorbethan semi-detached? The sort of car DSJ later referred to as 'grey porridge'.

 

And again, between the wars, only Riley - and arguably Aston Martin and Morgan - of the established manufacturers produced anything sporting. Bentley and MG were the only notable new foundations, and even the MG was just a Morris in new clothes at first. Not as niche as the likes of Alta, Lagonda, Frazer Nash or Atalanta of course - but they were mostly building cars in small quantities for the well-heeled 'bright young things'.



#45 Michael Ferner

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Posted 14 November 2023 - 09:18

After having written the above it occured to me that I didn't really know how 'successful' British car manufacturers (as a whole, or individually) were in the first half of the 20th, in terms of naked economical figures! The idea that they were "lacking" in success comes mainly from the idea that Britain, as the starting point of the Industrial Revolution, 'should' have been leading the way in Europe at the very least, and didn't in fact because British manufacturers failed to achieve significant success on the racing tracks, with the caveat that although I feel certain there's a correlation, it's not THAT easy, of course. A quick browse of the interweb did not yield any significant data to proof that theory, somewhat reliable looking figures only being available for more recent years, and decades going back to the fifties - bummer!

 

Does anyone know of a source (whether hard copy or internet) for an overview about annual car production per country (and, if possible, for major companies, too) in the years leading up to WW2?  :cat:



#46 P0wderf1nger

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Posted 14 November 2023 - 11:16

 When  I went to the Tyrrell event last summer I noticed with some amusement that some of the original toilets had been preserved for posterity , which has to be a first. They looked ...err....unremarkable and notable only for the urinal being in a ghastly shade of brown. But it did prompt a thought -my late father was no racing fan , but as a medical student in the 30s at UCL he did attend  The Track  with his chums. So I wondered , did he use this toilet and if he did can I put up a plaque ?  

Barnes Wallis' bathroom is preserved too...



#47 P0wderf1nger

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Posted 14 November 2023 - 11:32

Doug's comments about the massive influence of horse racing on Brooklands are spot on. Witness the silks the early drivers wore, the separate finishing straight (think of the Grand National's Elbow) and the great width of the track - Ray Mays' 'great prairies of concrete' - laid out in expectation that handicaps would cause a great phalanx of cars to approach the finish line side-by-side.  



#48 Sterzo

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Posted 14 November 2023 - 11:52

No definitve source material from me; my only source was my Dad. Having been a young motor mechanic, motor cyclist and car enthusiast in the thirties, he knew racing should take place on roads. So contemptuous of Brooklands was he, that he never mentioned it unprompted, and certainly didn't go there. But then, his boss at Motor Services in Wolverhampton was Cyril Williams, who had won the Junior TT in 1920. And he would take me to Oulton Park in the fifties, but refused point blank to go near the Silverstone airfield.



#49 68targa

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Posted 14 November 2023 - 12:16

After having written the above it occured to me that I didn't really know how 'successful' British car manufacturers (as a whole, or individually) were in the first half of the 20th, in terms of naked economical figures! The idea that they were "lacking" in success comes mainly from the idea that Britain, as the starting point of the Industrial Revolution, 'should' have been leading the way in Europe at the very least, and didn't in fact because British manufacturers failed to achieve significant success on the racing tracks, with the caveat that although I feel certain there's a correlation, it's not THAT easy, of course. A quick browse of the interweb did not yield any significant data to proof that theory, somewhat reliable looking figures only being available for more recent years, and decades going back to the fifties - bummer!

 

Does anyone know of a source (whether hard copy or internet) for an overview about annual car production per country (and, if possible, for major companies, too) in the years leading up to WW2?  :cat:

 

From The Albany Advertiser -10 April 1930
Alany.jpg



#50 Michael Ferner

Michael Ferner
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Posted 14 November 2023 - 14:11

Thanks, targa!

 

It never really occured to me to search the newspapers :blush: (me, one of the 'pioneers' of expansive newspaper research for motor racing history! - double :blush: :blush:)

 

Anyway, meanwhile I have found something on the interweb, academic too (from an article at Cambridge University Press, dealing predominantly with Spain - https://www.cambridg...A201D2A70096897) :

 

First, total production:

 

Auto-Production-1900-1928-Cambridge.png

 

 

Registrations:

 

Auto-Registrations-1900-1928-Cambridge.p

 

 

Finally, per capita (by thousands):

 

Auto-Per1000-1900-1928-Cambridge.png

 

 

 

Interesting figures! Mainly surprised by Canada's high ranking, but overall within expectations. Yes, I think you can say that Britain was underperforming, but perhaps not by as much as I would have expected.


Edited by Michael Ferner, 14 November 2023 - 14:18.