36 replies to this topic

[TerryS]

For interest an interesting article:

 

Noise and Motorsport Venues: A Deep Dive – The Race Torque

[john aston]

It's an emotive subject, inevitably featuring the canard of the family who move near a racetrack and then complain about the noise . It is a more nuanced issue than that , as noise can be  irritating and genuinely stressful and race circuits (and everything else ) do not have carte blanche to make as much noise as they like, when they like . The problem nowadays isn't race meetings but track days -my sister used to live in earshot of Croft and F3 cars and the like were very audible, even from several miles away . But that was ok by her for  the big ticket race meeting a couple of times a year  What would be less ok is the near day in, day out din of bikes (especially ) on track days ,which are run far more often than race meetings . Much was made of the locals complaining at Mallory Park - but one of them told me the problem wasn't race meetings, but  long duration motocross .... 

Edited by john aston, 24 October 2023 - 06:21.

[GregThomas]

My local circuit was built under a flight path into the local international airport. No intensive building allowed in the flight path zones. Blanket 95Db limit combined with restricted days of use.

Still hasn't stopped noise complaints.

The land owners - the local council - have followed a policy of buying up residential/farmlet  properties in the area as they've come up. The circuit operators - local car club - have also bought some as they have been able to afford them.

 

Amusingly, we now have a Mayor who is motorsport keen. His plan is to quarry all the gravel under the existing circuit - and rebuild to a higher standard of circuit.

To attract the aussie Supercars....

 

Nothing wrong with it as it stands. The Supercars horse has bolted.

[Stephen W]

Some years back there had been Noise Complaints to the Local Council from residents nearby about Pembrey race track. I was attending a round of the British Sprint Championship at the venue and got chatting to the Enviromental Engineer in charge. Practice started and we were about ten cars in when one of his chaps radioed in asking when the meeting was due to start as he wasn't getting any significant readings. At Lunch time I met up with team and it appeared that the highest reading was from a motorbike bombing past the venue on the A484 with second place going to a plane landing at Pembrey airfield adjacent to the track! Even the readings on the drive-by trackside monitor were way below those expected.

 

More recently in my capacity as a committee member of Liverpool Motor Club we were informed that there had been complaints about noise levels from events on track - motor cycle racing, sprints and trackdays. Upon request the local council provided us with a list of dates when the complaints had been filed. 85% were on days when there was no activity on the circuit. The Enviromental Team arrived at the next sprint but left mid-afternoon somewhat disappointed as the readings were again insignificant. I have no idea on the readings from the motor cycle events but they continued to be held. As a precaution LMC had the event Enviromental Engineers monitor not only the static readings but also had they monitor two drive by points during the day. These readings are held by the club just in case!

[flatlandsman]

It is an age old problem.  And one that requires proactive thinking.  Some venues are lucky they are in the middle of nowhere with no issue.

 

Some are closer to towns and new housing and this will always be the case moving forward for most tracks.

 

History has no say whatsoever, what matters is the complaint being made, the force and backing behind it, the fact a venue has been somewhere for decades makes little difference in a noise issue unless there is some real history to the venue and evidence it makes a real impact on the local economy, which in most cases (am talking low stuff here like MX autograss etc) it does not. I know countless MX tracks that have been closed simply because the locals do not like them there, they dont like the dust or the noise. I have to admit the noise can be very annoying as it can last all day.

 

Most modern race series do something about it, most cars have decent sound deadening.

 

It is stuff like drag racing, MX< vintage stuff that can suffer as to be in period they often run without much in the way of silencers, indeed most drag cars run without any sound deadening gear. 

 

Another aspect is the PA system, imagine having to listen to that for 8 hours with some idiot like Croft commentating, that would be enough to annoy anyone!

[Ray Bell]

It was all lip-service when Sandown's initial requirement for mufflers was introduced, which might well have been when the circuit was first built...

 

2.5-litre Coventry-Climax FPF engines make pretty much the same amount of noise whether there's a modified beer can held around the pipe with hose clamps or not.

 

It all got much more serious with the introduction of mandatory mufflers that actually worked (at all circuits in Australia) in 1973/74.

[bsc]

Much was made of the locals complaining at Mallory Park - but one of them told me the problem wasn't race meetings long duration motocross ....

Also the Mallory situation was somewhat exacerbated by the venue operating for more than double its maximum number of permitted days in a year and, occasionally, beyond its curfew.

[john aston]

And do you remember our late friend,  Simon Arron's disgust with the behaviour of some bikers when the circuit reopened ? They pointed their race can equipped bikes at the village and let rip. With friends like this...

[flatlandsman]

I do feel that some motorcyclists and car owners do not help, there is absolutely no need whatsoever to drive around on UK roads with excessively noisy cars or bikes, some of the worst offenders are the smallest cars and bikes, often learner with awful sounding single cylinder buckets that make more noise than a 300hp GP bike, I always imagine what it must be like to live near one of these cretins when they get up and go to (typically) do a dead end job at 5.30 in the morning, as they cant be bright enough to do much else. 

 

I dont think Mallory helped themselves no, but Croft was totally ridiculous, as were a few short ovals I follow who nearly closed because of noise, mainly due to people who did not live  there half the time and are actually right next to a bloody military airbase!

[GreenMachine]

Also the Mallory situation was somewhat exacerbated by the venue operating for more than double its maximum number of permitted days in a year and, occasionally, beyond its curfew.

 

Sounds ( ) a lot like Wakefield Park, operating on a 1993 approval designed for totally different program to what was being undertaken and exacerbated by a very casual attitude to noise restrictions.  Now under new ownership, lot of work being done in order to reopen, I think early. 2024?

[Dipster]

This last weekend has seen a Le Mans series event at Portimao, Portugal. I have a house nearby,12 kms as the crow flies. I could hear all the action in my garden! It doesn't bother me but can see how others might be less than happy.......

[Nick Planas]

Here in Brackley, when the wind is in the 'right' direction we can often hear testing & race days at Silverstone which is some 6.5 miles away; again, no bother to us as it tends to be a background drone rather than a loud noise.

 

One year my wife complained about hearing the Moto GP but the sound was actually the incessant line of spectators on their bikes roaring up the Brackley bypass on beasts that were louder than they perhaps needed to be.

[john aston]

True - I was at Brands a few years ago for a CSCC meeting . I was enjoying the sight and sound of Cortinas , Mustangs and TVRs when I heard an absurdly loud V8 bellow into life with a gratuitous chorus of bangs and pops . What the **** is that, I thought , and how did it pass the noise test? It didn't need to , because it was an unmodiified road car - a Jaguar F Type R . Designed , I assume, to appeal to ten year olds of all ages. 

[sabrejet]

This last weekend has seen a Le Mans series event at Portimao, Portugal. I have a house nearby,12 kms as the crow flies. I could hear all the action in my garden! It doesn't bother me but can see how others might be less than happy.......

 

I bet you knew when the Le Mans Cup was running! I shall miss those little guys.

[Bob Riebe]

People who bitch about noise from venues such as race tracks, airports, etc. lead too easy of a life and have too much free time on their hands.

 

On a similar note in abstract: people up here built a housing complex near a decades old hog farm, SO, they started bitching about the smell from the hog farm.

Pissant politicians took the side of assinine home owners; in the left-wing cancer enveloping this country, that was not a surprise.

Edited by Bob Riebe, 24 October 2023 - 22:45.

[Charlieman]

Some people love living next to a racing circuit. A former work colleague bought her first "proper horse" from the proceeds recovering stranded cars with her tractor at Mallory Park.

[LittleChris]

I'd love to live within noise range of a race track. It'd hopefully blank out the noise from the very annoying bells tape that the local church insist on playing on a Sunday morning.😬

[bsc]

People who bitch about noise from venues such as race tracks, airports, etc. lead to easy of a life and have too much free time on their hands.

However, there is a need to balance the requirements of a circuit and the needs of residents. It is perhaps unfair to say that a circuit has carte blanche to do what is wants irrespective of the impacts.

In the case of the two most recent UK examples; Mallory Park was significantly breaching its permitted days/hours of use by a considerable margin.

The complainants at Croft moved to the area at a time that the circuit had been abandoned (and planning permission had been granted to turn the venue back to farming), with the only car action being a handful of rallycross meetings each year. Their main complaint was in respect of track days - these didn't take place in the 80s, when they moved there.

[LittleChris]

I thought Croft involved a messy divorce involving someone who used to run the circuit ?!?

[ensign14]

It's an emotive subject, inevitably featuring the canard of the family who move near a racetrack and then complain about the noise .

The idea to prevent nuisance claims is to own all the land affected by the nuisance.  Otherwise you're blighting it for development.

[Lee Nicolle]

It was all lip-service when Sandown's initial requirement for mufflers was introduced, which might well have been when the circuit was first built...

 

2.5-litre Coventry-Climax FPF engines make pretty much the same amount of noise whether there's a modified beer can held around the pipe with hose clamps or not.

 

It all got much more serious with the introduction of mandatory mufflers that actually worked (at all circuits in Australia) in 1973/74.

Sandown. Great circuit BUT noise is very selective. I have been pinged for noise there on a Friday. Come Sat and Sun there was not an issue. The noise echos out of that lovely big stand as well as the pitlane. From what I hear nothing has changed. Cloud cover can alter readings as well.

Never had an issue at Mallala, same car, similar rpm in the area checked. Otherwise a great big paddock.

Philip Island,  first thing in the morning with heavy cloud cover I got pinged. In the afternoon with a nice day no more issues for everyone. And little to disturb there except penguins,, and they are a damn site noiser just on dusk.

And yes they were proper fabricated  race mufflers with stainless packing. Which the TAFE guys had made droopy outlets for at one other PI meeting.

[Lee Nicolle]

I'd love to live within noise range of a race track. It'd hopefully blank out the noise from the very annoying bells tape that the local church insist on playing on a Sunday morning.

I live 6km [by road] and about 4k as the crow flies. from the Adelaide street circuit. While at the distance not annoying I always knew what category was on track.

One event they decided to run into the evening and that really upset attendees at a Festival of Arts event, and rightly. An hour of Porsches [and yes I could hear them here was NOT the ideal background for a music event.

Our very STUPID Labor Govt put everything on in March where common sense would tell you that was plain stupid. And with racing, Festival, Adelaide Cup for horses and other events all spread over 4 weeks very few have the money and energy for all of it. And yes I do know people that would attend at least in part all these events. As spectators.

Now we have been blessed yet again with the Taxpayer 500 near Xmas. And the Govt will not tell the taxpayer how much it cost.

[john aston]

I thought Croft involved a messy divorce involving someone who used to run the circuit ?!?

 That was part of it. But like it or not , the law is there for all to use. There was a sustainable case , however 'unfair' it might seem from the perspective of motor sport enthusiasts . How deliciously ironic it was that the Walkinshaws (or was it the Richards , some other big cheese ?) moved to a big house in  the country and then complained about the farm noises from next door.  

[bsc]

How deliciously ironic it was that the Walkinshaws (or was it the Richards , some other big cheese ?) moved to a big house in the country and then complained about the farm noises from next door.

I'm not sure about the Walkinshaws/Richards but certainly Frank Sytner (on moving to rural Rutland) complained about mud on a track, with his wife complaining about noise from cows. They eventually relocated to the less rural environs of Monte Carlo.

[john aston]

That was the one ! And what did W Somerset Maugham Greene once  say about Monte Carlo ? "A sunny place for shady people ".  

[Derwent Motorsport]

I thought Croft involved a messy divorce involving someone who used to run the circuit ?!?

That was certainly the start of it.

[Sterzo]

Another angle to the "shouldn't have moved there" argument, is that anyone who has moved house has experienced the impossibility of finding out what it's actually like living there. Maybe should be looking at a future in which racing circuits don't blight whole areas.

 

I'm glad I heard the V16 BRM and V12 Matra, but some of the best racing I've seen has been Formula Ford. Perhaps there's a clue there.

[Gene]

Noise is a big issue here in the states, especially at Lime Rock, Conn. Lime Rock is a major east coast venue for both the professional and clubby racers. Unfortunately to continue its existence the circuit has had to deal with two issues. The state of Conn. has some very strict "Blue Laws" prohibiting lots of activities on Sundays. The legal issues are coupled with a historical church located directly across the road from the circuit. For years the solution for coexistence was all the pro races were held over three day holiday weekends. Practice and qualifying on Fri and Sat, off on Sunday, race on the Mon. holiday. The clubbies raced on Sun., but adhered to an unwritten agreement not to start any race engines before 12 noon. The parishioners of the church were fine with the arrangement, since their services weren't being interrupted by non muffled engine noise and still benefited from the revenue the circuit brought into the town. But unfortunate one SCCA weekend several of the clubbies decided they didn't care about the agreement and fired up their motors early in the morning. Despite being admonished by the Stewart of the Meet and all their fellow racers, the damage was done. The Church complained to the local authorities and the law showed up at the circuit looking to end the racing. I think cooler heads prevailed and the meet was allowed to go on, but it resulted in local government passed additional ordinances limiting noise levels and prohibiting the running of non muffler engines within the county. Now racing at Lime Rock, besides dealing with issues like power and handling, the biggest issue is "Are we under the noise threshold?"

[flatlandsman]

Regarding noise and Sytner.I recall many years ago at an early Silvgerstone Classic before it became a council house Goodwood, Sytner was driving all sorts of stuff and doing a lot of wining.

 

My father a retired plod knew of the man from various ways...and I from watching racing and hearing stories. 

 

I recall we both spontaneously booed him on the podium after his umpteenth win, which got a few heads turning but made a few others laugh out loud, including us!  Made my day, maybe no Mr Sytner's. Always found him one of the most irritating people to ever sit in a race car for some reason, sure he was a perfectly decent fella but he has that smug kind of face you would never tire of punching!!

 

On a serious note, you have to be proactive with noise regardless of the venue, people have a right to quiet and you have no idea of their contacts and influence, one person can easily close a venue with the right contacts, but some people are just miserable scrotes with enough money to take it as far as they can Midenhall stock ar track went to the European Court or something for Gods sake yet it remains open, hilariously the peoples house was burned down mysteriously... No idea why. 

[D-Type]

On the subject of perceived noise, I was once told about the time that Concorde had to make an emergency diversion to Gatwick and take off the next day once the problem had been resolved - I don't know if it was fog or the aircraft.  There were no complaints about the noise - until a report appeared in the local paper a week later.

[ensign14]

Heseltine actually fecked over the noise complainers about Concorde when he announced a test flight was going to take off at 9.30am and at 9.31am the phone calls started.

 

To which the answer was "actually we had it take off at 9am."

[john aston]

Regarding noise and Sytner.I recall many years ago at an early Silvgerstone Classic before it became a council house Goodwood, Sytner was driving all sorts of stuff and doing a lot of wining.

 

 

 

Funny you say that ,because ,  much as I enjoy it ,  I always regard Goodwood as the gated community version of the Silverstone Classic. I swear I drive through the hamlet of Comfortably Affluent on the South Downs  en route  to Goodwood .

[Dick Dastardly]

What are the noise limitations ]?] at Donington [if any] given that is next to East Midlands Airport?

I heard something a while back.....don't know whether true or not.....that they were limited to certain hours / limits yet aircraft were taking off, drowning out any circuit noise. 

[bsc]

What are the noise limitations ]?] at Donington [if any] given that is next to East Midlands Airport?

I heard something a while back.....don't know whether true or not.....that they were limited to certain hours / limits yet aircraft were taking off, drowning out any circuit noise. 

Donington has noise/use limits. However, they are far more lenient than any other UK circuit.

 

Basically, they can hold 60 race days per year. Of these, 20 are unsilenced; 20 can run to 118dB (basically the levels of the BTCC/British GT); and 20 run to 108dB (suitable more most club stuff). Race days can take place between 9am and 8pm on any day, with no mandatory lunch break. They can also run two unsilenced test days per week (from 9am to dusk) and run activities to 98dB (suitable for track days) on all other days of the year (including things like Christmas day, if they so wish). 

[Lee Nicolle]

Donington has noise/use limits. However, they are far more lenient than any other UK circuit.

 

Basically, they can hold 60 race days per year. Of these, 20 are unsilenced; 20 can run to 118dB (basically the levels of the BTCC/British GT); and 20 run to 108dB (suitable more most club stuff). Race days can take place between 9am and 8pm on any day, with no mandatory lunch break. They can also run two unsilenced test days per week (from 9am to dusk) and run activities to 98dB (suitable for track days) on all other days of the year (including things like Christmas day, if they so wish). 

95db here in Oz. Hence mine and many other issues listed above.

[Pat Clarke]

And all of this sadly points to the eventual adoption of EVs into motorsport.

 

For a preview, go listen to forklift trucks shuttling around in a warehouse.        

 

Pat

[john aston]

Or watch the lovely little McMurtry Speirin electric racer simply rocket up Goodwood. That put a big smile on my face , and I had an even bigger one when I saw it in the flesh - and it wasn't even moving ..

 

If every racer sounded like a Ferrari V12 (but not the buzzy V8 ) , a BMW Procar , a 911RS   or a Chevy small block then I'd be more concerned. But in this day of spec formulae , so many cars have farty turbo fourpots , and most sound utterly ghastly.  

Edited by john aston, 30 October 2023 - 17:59.