21 replies to this topic

[marksixman]

Following dear Felipe Massa's decision (misguided in my view , much as I love him) to try and gain the 2008 F1 WDC title by overturning race results through legal means, are there not several instances where we should be demanding re-investigations  ?

 

Despite Stirling Moss' support, Mike Hawthorn's actions in push-starting his car at Porto in 1958 surely require a review.

 

The FIA should definitely be looking at Jack Brabham PUSHING his car (on a 'live' circuit) over the line at Sebring in 1959. Outrageous !

 

James Hunt should surely never have been allowed to take the re-start at Brands Hatch in 1976 - although I was there, and do believe there may have been something of a riot if he hadn't !

 

Michael Schumacher coming back onto the track at Adelaide in 1994 was surely an "unsafe re-joining" AND "causing a collision" !

 

Now, time to go and read through many years of endurance racing incidents that affected championship outcomes !!

 

For clarity, I am attempting  humour - in my view it is history, and should be left alone. Otherwise we end up suing the Romans for invading Britain.

 

 

[Doug Nye]

Despite what they brought with them...and while exceeding track limits?

 

DCN

[Vitesse2]

Coppa Ciano 1938. Severi gets a push start after spinning off in the Coppa Ciano Junior. No penalty.

 

 

Manfred von Brauchitsch spins off and gets a push start in the main event. Finishes first on the road, disqualified for receiving outside assistance. Even worse - from Manfred's point of view - that jumped-up mechanic Lang was awarded the win. Pechvogel indeed.

 

[ensign14]

Monaco 1982.  Patrese gets pushed off track after stalling but uses it as a bump-start to win the race.

 

Remove that and not only does Mansell win, but Brian Henton has a shot at the podium.

 

Also Indy 1989.  Black-flag Emmo for putting Al Jr into the wall and it's a three-way shot between Boesel (with an ailing engine), AJ, and Mario...

[F1Frog]

Monaco 1982.  Patrese gets pushed off track after stalling but uses it as a bump-start to win the race.

 

Remove that and not only does Mansell win, but Brian Henton has a shot at the podium.

 

Also Indy 1989.  Black-flag Emmo for putting Al Jr into the wall and it's a three-way shot between Boesel (with an ailing engine), AJ, and Mario...

I don't understand. How can these examples give Felipe Massa more championships?

[marksixman]

Despite what they brought with them...and while exceeding track limits?

 

DCN

And I'm sure one of those chariots had a wing hanging off !!

[opplock]

Otherwise we end up suing the Romans for invading Britain.

 

Are you joining the campaign? 2,000 years worth of compound interest will be more than enough to finance all of the outlandish claims for reparations being made against the UK and allow building HS2 as far as Crewe. "We'll gladly pay everything you ask for just as soon as the Italians cough up what we're owed."  

 

I'll take a Ferrari as my share.

[Dick Dastardly]

What about the hundreds or thousands of times spectators have helped push / pull rally cars back onto the track after leaving the road....  How many rallies would have their results altered if these actions were deemed illegal...

[Emery0323]

Not to be a pedant, but shouldn't the subject line refer to "Litigation" rather than "Legislation"?

Edited by Emery0323, 05 November 2023 - 18:41.

[Tom Glowacki]

Not to a pedant, but shouldn't the subject line refer to "Litigation" rather than "Legislation"?

Just because you are a pedant, it does not mean you are wrong.  Wow, that is twice in one week, I've used the word "pedant".

[john aston]

Not to a pedant, but shouldn't the subject line refer to "Litigation" rather than "Legislation"?

 A fellow after my own heart. And we can drop the 'retrospective' too - litigation is usually about stuff that has already happened .  

[Stephen W]

And I'm sure one of those chariots had a wing hanging off !!

 

Ah that would mean the wing was a "moveable aerodynamic device" and incur instant decapitation!

[10kDA]

Just blame Spellcheck and Grammarly for the thread title.

[brucemoxon]

For good or for ill... "and having writ, moves on."



BRM

[Lee Nicolle]

What about the hundreds or thousands of times spectators have helped push / pull rally cars back onto the track after leaving the road....  How many rallies would have their results altered if these actions were deemed illegal...

Being serious sooner than later someone will be killed doing that. You see a dozen people across the road with a strap dragging some crap heap out of a ditch and  the next cars come through way to quick. Or same scenario and they all go down when said strap breaks. And some must be injured when that happens. 

Like at circuit racing the spectators should be behind barriers. Not in the middle of the action.

And yes compatitors that go off should NOT be allowed outside assistance

[john aston]

Watching bonkers Finnish lads running down the road , whooping and hollering even as the rally car is still rolling is a special delight on YouTube - I love the fact that everyone seems to have their own tow rope too. And crap heaps? I love old Volvos ... 

 

I've helped extract many rally cars myself in my younger days   , and survived to tell the tale . One of the rescues was of a certain H Mikkola in Dalby Forest , at the corner now known as Mikkola's bend . 

[RCH]

Being serious sooner than later someone will be killed doing that. You see a dozen people across the road with a strap dragging some crap heap out of a ditch and the next cars come through way to quick. Or same scenario and they all go down when said strap breaks. And some must be injured when that happens.
Like at circuit racing the spectators should be behind barriers. Not in the middle of the action.
And yes compatitors that go off should NOT be allowed outside assistance

You are missing something here. Time was when the spectators on a rally stage, in the UK anyway, were a sensible bunch keeping well back and being willing to help when someone goes off (which happens rather more often than on roundy roundy stuff) and knowing what they were doing would keep out of the way when another car appeared. There would be someone slowing down approaching cars. Yes, there was the occasional idiot but they were usually put in their place by marshals or other spectators. Hiding them behind barriers creates a species of speccy who doesn't know what he's doing and will glorify in his ability to break the rules.
It would be more dangerous to NOT allow outside assistance. Cars left in dangerous positions, maybe blocking the stage. A recipe for disaster. .

[Lee Nicolle]

You are missing something here. Time was when the spectators on a rally stage, in the UK anyway, were a sensible bunch keeping well back and being willing to help when someone goes off (which happens rather more often than on roundy roundy stuff) and knowing what they were doing would keep out of the way when another car appeared. There would be someone slowing down approaching cars. Yes, there was the occasional idiot but they were usually put in their place by marshals or other spectators. Hiding them behind barriers creates a species of speccy who doesn't know what he's doing and will glorify in his ability to break the rules.
It would be more dangerous to NOT allow outside assistance. Cars left in dangerous positions, maybe blocking the stage. A recipe for disaster. .

READ my post, what they are doing is very dangerous. As for allowing cars to stay where they dumped it,,, so be it. I have less problem with spectators flagging down following cars. If the stage is cancelled so be it. Maybe these kamikaze drivers may actually back off to somehwere near their skill set which is often very low.

Though the other end of the spectrum is equally bad.. 12/10ths most of the time. And when they crash it is BIG.

Rallying of any form these days [and for a very long time] unaceptably very dangerous for both teams and spectators. And it makes insurance for ALL motorsport very expensive

[RCH]

READ my post, what they are doing is very dangerous. As for allowing cars to stay where they dumped it,,, so be it. I have less problem with spectators flagging down following cars. If the stage is cancelled so be it. Maybe these kamikaze drivers may actually back off to somehwere near their skill set which is often very low.

Though the other end of the spectrum is equally bad.. 12/10ths most of the time. And when they crash it is BIG.

Rallying of any form these days [and for a very long time] unaceptably very dangerous for both teams and spectators. And it makes insurance for ALL motorsport very expensive

 

I DID read your post and wondered how much you actually know about rallying. Maybe from your comments about "where they dumped it" and "some crap heap" you are confusing it with banger racing? Please be assured that "leaving it where they dumped it" and cancelling a stage because it was blocked by cars which couldn't be moved would lead to the cancellation of the entire event. 

"It makes insurance for ALL motorsport very expensive" Certainly in the UK insurance for rallying is almost impossibly expensive. Do you have proof that this is entirely the fault of rallying? Or maybe it's just ill informed ignorance. 

[Lee Nicolle]

 

READ my post, what they are doing is very dangerous. As for allowing cars to stay where they dumped it,,, so be it. I have less problem with spectators flagging down following cars. If the stage is cancelled so be it. Maybe these kamikaze drivers may actually back off to somehwere near their skill set which is often very low.

Though the other end of the spectrum is equally bad.. 12/10ths most of the time. And when they crash it is BIG.

Rallying of any form these days [and for a very long time] unaceptably very dangerous for both teams and spectators. And it makes insurance for ALL motorsport very expensive

 

I DID read your post and wondered how much you actually know about rallying. Maybe from your comments about "where they dumped it" and "some crap heap" you are confusing it with banger racing? Please be assured that "leaving it where they dumped it" and cancelling a stage because it was blocked by cars which couldn't be moved would lead to the cancellation of the entire event. 

"It makes insurance for ALL motorsport very expensive" Certainly in the UK insurance for rallying is almost impossibly expensive. Do you have proof that this is entirely the fault of rallying? Or maybe it's just ill informed ignorance. 

I know a fair bit about rallying, a very dangerous branch of motorsport. When they 'dump' without outside help they have dumped it. Crap heaps?? Go look at some of the cars you see on You Tube clips everyday. Some are bloody awfull,, some are VERY expensive that simply explode hitting the scenery and occasionally each other. 

Same in circuit racing,, or speedway but they have ambulance and fire crews on station.

Every rally crash claim simply adds to all motorsport insurance,, and the amount of damage done to infrastrucure in rallying, homes, sheds, residents cars, spectators cars. fencing, signs even bridges etc as they seem to drive through them into a waterway.At times by 2 or 3. Plus, more relevant here in Oz grass or bushfires started by exploded cars. Though I have seen fair size fires in Euro events as well.

And then ofcourse public liability through injured spectators, officials etc. And that includes spectators tugging on a strap when it [or the car] breaks and down they go. Or hit by the following car who is too dumb to slow down for an incident. Then liability for crews who crash down gullys, into rivers, into one and other. What could go WRONG!!

[john aston]

If you spend your days watching rally crash compilations  on YouTube you might form the mistaken impression that rallying  is a constant series of lurid crashes . It really isn't . I've watched rallies for fifty odd years - live , in the flesh , not fast forwarding to the next shunt - and  I have been at one event involving a fatality or serious injury. Sure ,there's the odd excursion but it is mainly harmless stuff. Can't say I've ever seen 'sheds , spectator cars and homes ' damaged . 

 

I get you don't like it, but I do wish you wouldn't sneer at a branch of the sport so many  of us enjoy and whose direct personal experience of it is at odds with your lurid take on it . .  

[DCapps]

Now that this thread has veered off into the wilderness in typical TNF fashion, those managing the Massa strategy should rethink their approach and begin to develop a contrafactual narrative regarding the situation, push onto the hobbyist auto racing historians with some vigor, and there would probably come a point where it becomes an accepted fact that Massa was really the 2008 world champion but was robbed of his title; then, the records will be revised to confirm this as being true. I suspect that 2021 will see a similar campaign in the coming years.

 

There have been enough Winston Smiths (or Arthur Means, Alfred Neubauer or Russ Catlin clones...) in the auto racing community over time to make this a plausible approach for a viable strategy. 

 

Once you grasp that Alternate Facts may and can actually be imposed on the record, well opportunities abound.

 

Lest one think that this is beyond the pale, look at those Winston Smith clone names again...