101 replies to this topic

[Porsche718]

What we learn from history, is that we never seem to learn from history.

 

How many farcical F1 races are we going to let the US organise for us?

 

Austin is wonderful, but please never again allow them to run another street circuit!

 

After all, it may just be me, but I think this Las Vegas track layout is a bit of a pig!!!

 

[TFBundy]

Free Practice 2 at 3am!

 

... where's Ed Hugus when you need him?

[LittleChris]

.

Austin is wonderful, but please never again allow them to run another street circuit!

 

 

 

 

 

Unless it's on the original Watkins Glen, Bridgehampton or Elkhart Lake circuits 

[ensign14]

I still maintain the Dallas circuit was brilliant.  They just needed to run it not when the air temp was 110 and the tarmac had been laid by a hen.

[Bloggsworth]

Amazing how the stewards can obey the rules when it suits them "All the lapped cars..."

[10kDA]

Please leave Elkhart Lake out of the pool of potential future F1 races. The facility is called Road America because it was intended to emulate rural two-lane blacktop. Asking F1™ to come in and take a look will only result in the track getting Tilke'd up.

[chr1s]

Ive just seen an advert on an online gambling site for the "inaugural" Las Vegas Grand Prix....

[Vitesse2]

Ive just seen an advert on an online gambling site for the "inaugural" Las Vegas Grand Prix....

Technically correct, as the previous ones were called the Caesar's Palace Grand Prix.

 

And it is on a different circuit. The Nürburgring has hosted the German, Luxembourg and European* Grands Prix and Dijon-Prenois has been the location for both the French and Swiss GPs.

 

* A whole other can of worms!

[Vitesse2]

Notwithstanding the above, I'm with Max on this one ...

[Charlieman]

I believe that "Please, never again" is a polite version of Gordon Murray's message to Bernie after attending the first Caesar's Palace GP.

[rl1856]

F1/GP will go to the highest bidder.  Bernie started the trend, and Liberty expanded the practice.  We can criticize the spectacle and logistics of Las Vegas/Miami/Austin, just as easily as we can criticize the ethical decision to hold races in despotic countries.  Follow the money.

 

Having multiple races in the US is part of Liberty media's long term plan to create a large fan base in what was the largest unexploited market for the sport.  Unfortunately their approach is to create a gaudy show instead of allowing focus to remain where it should- on the actual competitors.   And yes, I'll watch the race (sigh).

[uechtel]

Technically correct, as the previous ones were called the Caesar's Palace Grand Prix.

 

And it is on a different circuit. The Nürburgring has hosted the German, Luxembourg and European* Grands Prix

 

 

Not to forget the GP of the Kingdom of the Eifel.

[john winfield]

What we learn from history, is that we never seem to learn from history.

 

How many farcical F1 races are we going to let the US organise for us?

 

Austin is wonderful, but please never again allow them to run another street circuit!

 

After all, it may just be me, but I think this Las Vegas track layout is a bit of a pig!!!

 

 

Good acceleration required - plenty of grunt.

[Vitesse2]

Not to forget the GP of the Kingdom of the Eifel.

True. But it was an easily forgettable race ...

[E1pix]

Hey, that’s so unfair to flip the track like that!

I won’t even ask what the exclamation point signifies… (LOL)

Edited by E1pix, 17 November 2023 - 14:45.

[Porsche718]

Hey, that’s so unfair to flip the track like that!
 

 

The image isn't flipped! For some reason they printed the corner numbers upside down!!

 

 

I won’t even ask what the exclamation point signifies…

 

The exclamation point? I think I know what you're hinting at ... particularly seeing that it's at the rear end.

[E1pix]

Nailed it.

I can’t decide whether Buttocks Bend or the Ham Curve has more speed, but Snout Turn looks challenging indeed!

[LittleChris]

Please leave Elkhart Lake out of the pool of potential future F1 races. The facility is called Road America because it was intended to emulate rural two-lane blacktop. Asking F1™ to come in and take a look will only result in the track getting Tilke'd up.

Which is why I referred to Elkhart Lake ( ie the original circuit through the town ) rather than Road America 

 

Elkhart Lake Historic Race Circuit - Elkhart Lake, WI

Edited by LittleChris, 17 November 2023 - 14:52.

[Henk Vasmel]

Not to forget the GP of the Kingdom of the Eifel.

Or the Grand Prix of Jenkinson in 1977

[Myhinpaa]

The organisers must have been inspired by the (failed) 2001 film "Driven", down to flying manhole covers etc.

 

https://www.youtube....annel=tornhill1

[B Squared]

The organisers must have been inspired by the (failed) 2001 film "Driven", down to flying manhole covers etc.

 

https://www.youtube....annel=tornhill1

IIRC, Detroit's first F1 race had the same issue.

[B Squared]

Being devil's advocate; certainly, some of the most historic races that have survived over the decades have had their share of critics too. 

[LittleChris]

& of course Jesus Pareja at Montreal ( 9.38 mins)

 

WSPC Race Montreal Canada 1990 - Crash Footage - YouTube

[PayasYouRace]

Technically correct, as the previous ones were called the Caesar's Palace Grand Prix.

 

And it is on a different circuit. The Nürburgring has hosted the German, Luxembourg and European* Grands Prix and Dijon-Prenois has been the location for both the French and Swiss GPs.

 

* A whole other can of worms!

The French GP or the GP de l’ACF?

[68targa]

All of this begs the question why they didn't run a current or 1yr old F1 car a week before, you know, just to check it all works.

 

Still F1 knows best and shows how to manage a tricky PR situation by evicting paying fans who wanted to wait for FP2 because staff ended their shift and it was past their bedtime - can't think why, it was only 3am !

[PayasYouRace]

All of this begs the question why they didn't run a current or 1yr old F1 car a week before, you know, just to check it all works.

 

Still F1 knows best and shows how to manage a tricky PR situation by evicting paying fans who wanted to wait for FP2 because staff ended their shift and it was past their bedtime - can't think why, it was only 3am !

I think there’s an obvious answer to your question. To avoid an extra week of disruption to a busy city centre.

[john aston]

If only they built special roads - sort of , y'know, in a big loop?- in some nice hilly countryside. We could call them - yes ! - race circuits and even explore the idea of holding races in daylight. It just might catch on .   

 

As for the pre race build up, I managed 2 minutes of Kylie Minogue (as it were) and rather less on some nonentities. 

 

Fred Vasseur  is rightly incandescent but , exercising his inner Candide , Herr Wolff says that everything is for the best in the best of all possible words . 

 

I agree- who said music hall is dead ? 

[sabrejet]

Please leave Elkhart Lake out of the pool of potential future F1 races. The facility is called Road America because it was intended to emulate rural two-lane blacktop. Asking F1™ to come in and take a look will only result in the track getting Tilke'd up.

 

Couldn't agree more: leave the decent tracks for proper racing and keep F1 tied to the joke circuits. Who cares about F1 other than sponsors anyway?

[Jim Thurman]

What we learn from history, is that we never seem to learn from history.

 

How many farcical F1 races are we going to let the US organise for us?

 

Austin is wonderful, but please never again allow them to run another street circuit!

And another wonderful post. "the US" and "them"

 

I wasn't aware a country and its people organized the race, or ran the street circuit. I thought it was Liberty, on a track designed by Herman Tilke (not from US) and approved by the FIA (not US based).

[Jim Thurman]

The default setting for this forum is to blame everything on "The Americans" (used perjoratively), while pissing, bitching and moaning that they can't do anything correctly. Often couched in cruel, inaccurate, broad stereotypes and surrounded by unbelievable tone deafness. 

 

It is Xenophobia, pure and simple. And, somehow, it's tolerated.

Edited by Jim Thurman, 18 November 2023 - 01:04.

[Vitesse2]

The French GP or the GP de l’ACF?

The last GP de l'ACF was in 1967. It was renamed Grand Prix de France in 1968.

[Parkesi]

Free Practice 2 at 3am!

... where's Ed Hugus when you need him?

[Parkesi]

Second to none! I‘m still laughing half an hour after reading it )

[10kDA]

Which is why I referred to Elkhart Lake ( ie the original circuit through the town ) rather than Road America 

 

Elkhart Lake Historic Race Circuit - Elkhart Lake, WI

The vast majority of the people who compete and spectate there call the facility Elkhart Lake, and have done so since way before I raced there in the 80s. Road America is on the programs, billboards, and TV listings etc but I rarely hear it called by its "official" name. Same as The Milwaukee Mile - on billboards, programs, TV listings etc but most people involved call it State Fair Park.

[10kDA]

Nailed it.

I can’t decide whether Buttocks Bend or the Ham Curve has more speed, but Snout Turn looks challenging indeed!

I want to see the escape road at the 16-15-14 series. Or, if you prefer, 14-15-16 if the course is actually being run counterclockwise.

[AJCee]

Jim Thurman, can I just apologise.

Back to the farce… in a land full of racing heritage and wonderful circuits, this is embarrassing. Austin is such a great track and event, but Eff Wun has learnt nothing going back to Las Vegas in the middle of the night.

Ejecting paying spectators because it’s ‘home time’? No support races? No track testing before the event?

Can’t make this stuff up… I too will be watching on Sunday morning though, cos I’m odd and love sitting quietly with a cup of coffee at that time on a Sunday

[Bloggsworth]

Jim Thurman, can I just apologise.

Back to the farce… in a land full of racing heritage and wonderful circuits, this is embarrassing. Austin is such a great track and event, but Eff Wun has learnt nothing going back to Las Vegas in the middle of the night.

Ejecting paying spectators because it’s ‘home time’? No support races? No track testing before the event?

Can’t make this stuff up… I too will be watching on Sunday morning though, cos I’m odd and love sitting quietly with a cup of coffee at that time on a Sunday

I won't be getting up, not even for a steaming bowl of proper porridge, not even at silly-o'-clock (none of tis instant rubbish).

[DCapps]

Motor sport, to the apparent utter and complete shock of so many here, has always had a major show biz element -- even in Europe, believe it or not. 

 

This is like listening to the old guys sitting at the bar whining about any and everything... as usual. 

 

Not that they are always wrong, but...

[PayasYouRace]

The last GP de l'ACF was in 1967. It was renamed Grand Prix de France in 1968.

Yeah but they’re counted as the same thing.

 

Which is why I’m counting this weekend as the third Las Vegas GP.

[AJCee]

I won't be getting up, not even for a steaming bowl of proper porridge, not even at silly-o'-clock (none of tis instant rubbish).

Well, I’ll be up anyway, it’s Bells on Sunday or the Grand Prix.

[Vitesse2]

Yeah but they’re counted as the same thing.

 

Which is why I’m counting this weekend as the third Las Vegas GP.

Following that logic, it's the fifth, because there were two CART races there - admittedly on a shorter circuit - in 1983 and 1984.

[Jim Thurman]

Jim Thurman, can I just apologise.

Back to the farce… in a land full of racing heritage and wonderful circuits, this is embarrassing. Austin is such a great track and event, but Eff Wun has learnt nothing going back to Las Vegas in the middle of the night.

Ejecting paying spectators because it’s ‘home time’? No support races? No track testing before the event?

Can’t make this stuff up… I too will be watching on Sunday morning though, cos I’m odd and love sitting quietly with a cup of coffee at that time on a Sunday

I'm not aware that you specifically need apologize, AJCee, but it is appreciated.

 

Absolutely, it is a farce. No disputing that. It's an institutional failure. The criticism is not unwarranted...

 

However, when a similar problem came up at Baku, I do not recall this forum being filled with posts about the Azeris being dumb incompetents, or when the manhole cover came up at Monaco, I do not recall post after post calling the Monagesque idiots that couldn't do anything right.

 

I recall much criticism aimed at Bernie Ecclestone, personally, when things went wrong during his reign, but never did I see it attributed negatively to the British as a people.

 

And, that's the whole point. It is a very sad reflection on this forum. 

Edited by Jim Thurman, 18 November 2023 - 01:04.

[john aston]

Couldn't agree more: leave the decent tracks for proper racing and keep F1 tied to the joke circuits. Who cares about F1 other than sponsors anyway?

Well I do . I love watching F1 now nearly as much as I did when I saw my first Grand Prix in 1971. I don't like the joke tracks  (this one included) at circuits in joke countries (NOT the USA , but the ghastly Gulf states, Azerbaijan et al  ) and I wish there were more room for innovation in the sport, but  less tribalism by the new breed of fan. 

 

I'm allowed a few niggles after half a century of watching ,  right ? But here's the thing - I last saw live F1 in 2022 and it was bloody thrilling, insanely fast and the standard of driving was  extraordinarily high . The racing is often very close and if you don't watch through the rosy tinted specs you bought in 1973 , races are sometimes brilliant , sometimes dull - same as it ever was. 

 

As for anti Americanism - not guilty. American music, literature and film have played a huge part in my life, few weekends have I enjoyed more than  NASCAR at Charlotte and I still get the tingles when I remember driving a  Mustang south from Memphis to the Mississippi delta . As for US motorsport there is a cornucopia to enjoy , as my YouTube viewing will attest . 

 

 But I sneer at the Vegas GP , not because it's in the USA but because - 1 It's on a shoddy track in a country which boasts so many great road circuits 2 It's held at night , so the view is mainly steel barrier and tarmac and 3 The organisation of the event is a bloody shambles - especially if you have paid a lot of $ to see it. 

Edited by john aston, 18 November 2023 - 07:20.

[PayasYouRace]

Following that logic, it's the fifth, because there were two CART races there - admittedly on a shorter circuit - in 1983 and 1984.

Have we ever counted other series in a sequence like that? Sixth then, because you forgot the Champcar one in 2007.

[Vitesse2]

I'm not aware that you specifically need apologize, AJCee, but it is appreciated.

 

Absolutely, it is a farce. No disputing that. It's an institutional failure. The criticism is not unwarranted...

 

However, when a similar problem came up at Baku, I do not recall this forum being filled with posts about the Azeris being dumb incompetents, or when the manhole cover came up at Monaco, I do not recall post after post calling the Monagesque idiots that couldn't do anything right.

 

I recall much criticism aimed at Bernie Ecclestone, personally, when things went wrong during his reign, but never did I see it attributed negatively to the British as a people.

 

And, that's the whole point. It is a very sad reflection on this forum. 

Bernie was the very public face of FOM. He'd been in the sport as a driver and team owner. He was a known factor. Love him or hate him, he was at least visible and would stand up to defend his actions. He'd even - occasionally - admit his mistakes. I think you can make a case for - whatever his faults, and he certainly had some - him being a 'benevolent dictator'. But as such he was an easy target to hit - and as an American you're probably not aware of the typification of 'Essex wide boys'. I don't think either of two very successful British TV series - 'Minder' and 'Only Fools and Horses' - both featuring classic 'wide boys' who were somewhat less successful than Bernie, ever made it across the Big Pond, but I'm pretty sure our Antipodean posters will know them. Bernie is the Arthur Daley or Del Boy Trotter who made it big.

 

Now, I know you take this personally, Jim, but I don't see this criticism as xenophobia. It's more a pushback - one might even say disgust - at what Liberty Media have done to the sport, which includes races in places like Baku and Saudi Arabia. And Liberty Media are an American corporation. They're faceless, despite Stefano Domenicali being their public face. If he ****s up, he's out. It just happens that the chaos which is the Las Vegas race has focussed attention on what many people see as - for want of a better phrase - the 'dumbing down' of F1. By an American corporation.

[john aston]

Go and judge for yourself ? I learned more about the current breed over a weekend at Silverstone than in years of TV watching .They are big , undoubtedly , but some , Red Bull and Ferrari especially , look wonderful in the flesh. They don't risk my perforating another eardrum (thanks Mugen V10 ) but under load they make a pleasant v6 howl . A bit weedy on overrun maybe but 950/1000bhp and insane grip ....it's bloody fabulous .  It is possible to like new stuff as well as old... 

[Vitesse2]

Not directly F1-related, but definitely corporatism-related in similar fashion, there's an article by Barney Ronay on the Guardian today about what corporate America - and I'm sorry, Jim, but it is mainly corporate America (Coca Cola, Meta, Mastercard) - in conjunction with the ICC (International Cricket Council) and, by extension the BCCI (Board of Control for Cricket in India) sees as the future of cricket. There is no obvious reason why the ICC has its HQ in Dubai, a city in a country which doesn't have Test status at international level.

 

Wonks, waiters and waffle: welcome to the tech-crazy world of modern cricket

 

'A disorientating insight into those who decide how sport is sliced and streamed'

 

The approach has lot of echoes of Liberty's control of F1.

 

Cricket will return to the Olympic Games in 2028 in Los Angeles. The 2032 Games are in Brisbane, where I am sure cricket will again feature. India is among the bidders for the 2036 Olympics and the only one - apart from Doha, not considered a front runner - with any sort of cricket infrastructure.

[Lee Nicolle]

I'm not aware that you specifically need apologize, AJCee, but it is appreciated.

 

Absolutely, it is a farce. No disputing that. It's an institutional failure. The criticism is not unwarranted...

 

However, when a similar problem came up at Baku, I do not recall this forum being filled with posts about the Azeris being dumb incompetents, or when the manhole cover came up at Monaco, I do not recall post after post calling the Monagesque idiots that couldn't do anything right.

 

I recall much criticism aimed at Bernie Ecclestone, personally, when things went wrong during his reign, but never did I see it attributed negatively to the British as a people.

 

And, that's the whole point. It is a very sad reflection on this forum. 

Monaco is an anochrism,, should be replaced by a proper race on a proper circuit.

Street circuits at best are a joke, a joke that takes a LOT of money and does not help local motorsport at all.

Parklands circuits are really no better though Monza is a race ciruit in a park. Too some extent so is Melbourne. Though the bike GP is on a race circuit, the cars,,,,, dumb.

[AJCee]

Purely for the sake of balance on the States, I am keen to hear all reasoned points of view on a subject, pro and anti, and views from all over the globe. There are countries I’ve been to that I am glad I don’t have to go again (no names, it’s a personal opinion) and there’s others where there is still so much to see. The USA is one of those. I’ve been places there I don’t want to go again and places I do. There are even more places I’d like to see. It is such a diverse country. Incidentally, Las Vegas is a place I am happy to never, ever go to. Again, it’s a personal opinion.

To me, the USA is a ‘great’ country, I just wish at the moment it would be (much like the UK) a better one still, but that’s a whole other story.

[Vitesse2]

Several posts have been removed.

 

However, I hope we can all agree that the ultimate cause of dispute/disagreement here is more due to corporatism than any form of xenophobia.