44 replies to this topic

[McRonalds]

During our discussion about unsafe racecars, I recently found this picture on the internet - a strange case of pace car trouble...



A 1971 Dodge Challenger convertible was selected to be the pace car for the 1971 Indianapolis 500 race. However what should have been a fantastic promotion for Dodge turned into a nightmare when at the start of the race the car crashed into a press stand killing one person and giving the rest something to write headlines about.

Four local dealers provided 50 cars, to be sold to the public or used on parade duties, fitted out like the actual pace car.
Only the actual pace car had a big block (383) engine. Two others had 340 cubic inch small blocks and the other 47 were 318 powered. All of the cars were painted orange and had white tops. The three cars with the larger engines had the lettering hand painted on the sides but the others had decals which were optional. Up to the day of the race the pace car had the normal Challenger flat hood but after the crash it was fitted with the R/T style Sport Hood. One of the 340ci cars had this hood too. The rest of the cars all had the flat hood.

On race day the pace car was driven by Eldon Palmer, one of the local dealers, who to this day is still very upset about the whole thing.

Eldon had quite rightly practiced the laps and had placed cones at strategic points around the circuit to indicate when to start to turn in and when to brake.

Unfortunately somebody moved a cone.

As Eldon came out of turn four with the 33 car field hot on his tail he dived down into the pit area as planned and started looking for the cone he had placed to tell him when to brake. By the time he realized it was missing it was too late. As he slammed on the (drum) brakes he saw he had two options. Either to go back out onto the track and hit the pack of accelerating race cars or just keep braking as best he could in a straight line.

He did the latter but could not stop in time to miss the stand full of press photographers. Some people feel that, had the car been fitted with the optional disc brakes, this tragic accident could of been avoided.

I'm sure there had been a lot of storys about 'pacecar in trouble'. Anyone who know's similar cases?!

[rdrcr]

A few racers have actually hit the pace car...



There was also an incident where a Busch series car (I think) really hit the pace car hard...
Does anyone else recall this one?

And in the Daytona 200 Motorcycle race - lap five, Mike Ciccotto crashed in the second horseshoe, bringing out the pace car. As the pace car approached NASCAR's turn two, a tightly bunched group of riders, drafting each other on the super-fast banking, came roaring up. The tucked-in riders couldn't see the pace car in time, and when Roberts suddenly slowed, he was hit from behind by Aaron Yates and Jamie Hacking. Yates, Hacking and their factory Suzuki bikes went tumbling down the banking.

[Viktor]

A must say it sounds very strange to use a driver who needs cones to know where to breake and turn in a big race like the Indy 500.
In Monaco 2000 the safty car crashed of the track in "Tabac" but that was after a practise session or before the start of the race (don't remember). The car was very damaged.

/Viktor

[dmj]

And there were famous taki inoue incidents, of course...

[McRonalds]

Didn't the pacecar cause a lot of trouble during the Canadian GP '73? Can't remember exactly the story, but it did not driver in front of the leader but in front of a backmarker (I think it was a Williams) and caused hopeless confusion. Can anybody help my brain...?!

[Rediscoveryx]

Wasn't there an incident at a CART race in Miami in the early 90's, where both Mario and Michael Andretti crashed into a rescue vehicle?

Not really a pace car, but pretty darn close

[McRonalds]

There's good use for a pacecar in every class...

[rdrcr]

Here is what I found regarding that Canadian GP pace car incident...

"The most confusing Canadian GP result came in 1973, following the first ever use of a pace car in a GP - which circulated in front of the wrong car. While a rash of pit stops took place to change from wet to dry tyres, most teams' lap charts 'blew up', and at least three drivers - Emerson Fittipaldi (JPS Lotus), Jackie Oliver (Shadow) and Peter Revson (McLaren) - finished believing they had won. The verdict was eventually given to Revson. "

http://www.google.co...rand Prix&hl=en

[FrankB]

Originally posted by Viktor

In Monaco 2000 the safty car crashed of the track in "Tabac" but that was after a practise session or before the start of the race (don't remember). The car was very damaged.

/Viktor

Wasn't this an incident with the medical car rather than the safety car. Prof Sid Watkins in his book "Beyond the Limit" recounts how Alex Ribeiro lost the car into Tabac, after the rumble strips at the chicane had triggerred the car's ESP system (which had been switched off).


In rdrcr's post - is the driver of the pace car really out there without a helmet?

[Hitch]

There was a Grand prix when the drivers had no problem with the pacecar but with the pace of the pacecar - France '99. If I remember right a few drivers spun off (Zandardi was one of them) because the pacecar simply drove too fast for the F1-cars in the heavy rain. The pacecar-driver later became the advice to slow down a little bit. I can't help laughing at that.

Does anybody remember who drove the pacecar then?

[Vitesse2]

Oliver Gavin?

[f1_mw]

Originally posted by dmj
And there were famous taki inoue incidents, of course...

[Hitch]

Taki was a poor soul and had another 'meeting' with a pacecar (or should I say safetycar?!) in Monaco. I don't know what exactly had happened but he had a collision with the pacecar during a slow practice lap. The Arrows tipped over and poor Taki was thrown out on the street. I hope I'll find a picture somewhere...

[Hitch]

Correction: Taki had a spin and was towed when the pacecar hit him - the driver was Jean Ragnotti (a former racecar driver - but I don't know which series)...

[Buford]

Actually what happened with Eldon Palmer at Indy was there was a flag pole near the starting line all month when he practiced. It was on the grass strip next to the track where the pit board guys stand. He used that flag pole as his braking point. On race day, with all the crowds now in the stands and all the excitement he never noticed the flag pole had been removed. When he came down pit lane due to the crowd in the stand which were not there when he practiced he was having a hard time locating his flag pole (which in fact wasn't there). He drove 3/4 down the length of the pit lane looking to his right before he looked ahead and saw the fast approaching end with the photographers stand.

At that point he was screwed because he could not go to his right back out to the track's exit lane and let the drivers handle it because there was a line of yellow shirt guards holding a rope extending across the opening. He locked it up, got kind of sideways, and hit the photographer stand which was a flat bed trailer on wheels. Several people were injured. The worst was a family friend of ours, Dr. Vicinte Alvarez from Argentina. My father gave permission to do brain surgury at the hospital after the race because there was no one else to sign the papers.

Alvarez recovered after a long three year process but never was able to go back to practicing medicine. Palmer helped him out financially and in subsequent visits over the years Dr. Alvarez stayed at Mr. Palmers house during the month of May. The last time this was discussed last summer somebody posted a link to photos of all this.

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by Hitch
Correction: Taki had a spin and was towed when the pacecar hit him - the driver was Jean Ragnotti (a former racecar driver - but I don't know which series)...

'Ragnagna' Ragnotti was a Renault rallye ace from the 70s - driving all kinds of Gordini-esque little demons over the French tarmac. Quite famous in France, but never very active elsewhere. But since that day in Monaco we know him a little better.

[Hitch]

I remember Ragnotti drove at Le Mans with the Rondeau Team for some years. He's surely the same.

[scheivlak]

Ragnagna, former winner of the Monte Carlo Rally and the Tour de Corse, has some driving tips for us: http://www.renault.c...securite_p4.htm

2. Maintain your concentration
(........) Stay focused on the road ahead and you'll spot any danger in time to take evasive action.

4. Keep a safe distance
Never stay close behind the vehicle in front, especially if it's a truck.
Err, that Arrows......

[Wolf]

I'm terrible with dates, but wasn't last season a start of a MotoGP race delayed because pacecar (BMW Z3, IIRC, but definitely a Beamer) had a shunt during warm up lap, whilst following the drivers. Though, it may've been in 2000...

[indysteve]

Last August I saw Al Unser, Jr. and Kenny Brack almost t-bone an ambulance during the IROC race at Indianapolis. Buddy Lazier had been in a crash in turn 3, and the ambulance was taking him to the infield care center to be checked out (he was OK). Unser and Brack went into the pits while the yellow flag was out. Just as the ambulance began to turn left into the infield between turns 1 and 2, Unser and Brack came flying around the pit exit lane inside of turn 1. Unser saw the ambulance and had to get on the brakes hard in order to avoid hitting it. Brack didn't see it, and he had to drive over the grass strip between the pit exit lane and the track in order to miss both Unser and the ambulance!

[Hitch]

And there's even more use for pace/safety-cars: for example hunting dogs in Brazil...

...or is this the Schumacher-dogcatcher?

[byrkus]

Originally posted by Wolf
I'm terrible with dates, but wasn't last season a start of a MotoGP race delayed because pacecar (BMW Z3, IIRC, but definitely a Beamer) had a shunt during warm up lap, whilst following the drivers. Though, it may've been in 2000...

Jerez 2001, not sure if it was 250cc or 500cc race... But still, it was some moment!!

'Start has been delayed because of a pace car crash...'

[Buford]

At one of the IRL farces a couple years ago the pace car was out on a yellow and collided with Donnie Beechler. The pace car was not being driven by a Bozo either. It was 3 time Indy 500 winner Johnny Rutherford.

[Megatron]

Beechler always seemed to be in the middle of it, didn't he. He also was blamed for knocking out de Ferren at Phoneix. I remember that well, even the IRL brigade was sad...

[Buford]

No it wasn't Beechler at Phoenix. It was Jaret Shroeder.

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by rdrcr
A few racers have actually hit the pace car...

There was also an incident where a Busch series car (I think) really hit the pace car hard...
Does anyone else recall this one?

I don't know if you go far enough back to remember the first or are getting it mixed up the latter, but...

Geoff Bodine really plowed into the back of the pace car during a (as it was then called) NASCAR Late Model Sportsman race at Rockingham. The pace car spun backwards up the banking and into the guard rail, damaging the rear bodywork quite extensively. It was quite a sight, seeing this on TV (shown something like two weeks later) with the pace car (and debris) rolling back down the banking. This incident must have been in 1981.

In the ARCA race at Daytona in 1999, a driver (I'm pretty sure it was Joe Cooksey) hit the pace car quite hard too, but despite some idiot sportscasters claims, it was purely the pace car driver's fault. He slowed to almost a stop wanting to pick up the correct car and Cooksey was still circulating at a reasonable speed for the yellow when he came upon a pace car almost stopping directly in front of him in between turns 3 and 4. He tried to avoid it, locking up his brakes. Imagine the closing speed!.

I'm sure someone will bring up the pace car being "stolen" at Talladega.

I also remember a NASCAR race where the pace car blew it's engine...big smoke and a trail of oil.


Jim Thurman

[McRonalds]

I remember that one: Andrew Bordin and a passenger were involved in a pace car crash prior to the start of CART's Marlboro 500 at California Speedway '00. Bordin, a competitor in the CART Toyota Atlantic series, was giving a guest ride to Yoshimichi Inada, managing director of Pioneer, when he lost control of his car. Bordin fractured and dislocated the fourth cervical vertebrae and Inada was unconscious briefly at the scene of the accident...

[Mike Argetsinger]

Originally posted by FrankB


In rdrcr's post - is the driver of the pace car really out there without a helmet? [/B]

Why would you expect the pace car driver to be wearing a helmet?

[FrankB]

Originally posted by Mike Argetsinger




Why would you expect the pace car driver to be wearing a helmet?

Can I refer you to the two postings immediately before yours, amongst others?

[Mike Argetsinger]

Originally posted by FrankB


Can I refer you to the two postings immediately before yours, amongst others?

And your point is. . . .? My question is not to respond to your apparent horror and dismay that the driver of the pace car was not wearing a helmet - but to ask you why you are surprised that he isn't. Of course he is "out there" without a helmet. Pace car drivers don't wear helmets because they aren't racing.

[FrankB]

Originally posted by Mike Argetsinger



And your point is. . . .? My question is not to respond to your apparent horror and dismay that the driver of the pace car was not wearing a helmet - but to ask you why you are surprised that he isn't. Of course he is "out there" without a helmet. Pace car drivers don't wear helmets because they aren't racing.

Mike - I was expressing neither horror or dismay, only surprise.

I agree that pace car drivers are not racing themselves, but they are going on to a track where 20 or 30 drivers most definitely are racing. Now if everybody is careful and no-one does anything foolhardy then the pace car driver is in no real danger. But unfortunately things do go wrong (witness the earlier posts in this thread), people do jump starts (witness your own report elsewhere of a FF race), etc.

I would have thought that some sense of self preservation would lead anyone in a potentially dangerous situation to take some measure to mitigate the effects of their own or other peoples errors and misjudgements.

The implication of your last sentence is that you are only at risk of serious injury if you are a competing driver. Could you explain to me the proliferation of protective clothing amongst pit crews - after all they are protected by pit lane speed limits and are only near to the cars for 10 seconds at a time?

[rdrcr]

Originally posted by Jim Thurman
I don't know if you go far enough back to remember the first or are getting it mixed up the latter, but...

Well... I do but I was only trying to recall the later (ARCA) incident...

The stolen pace car incident happened just recently didn't it? A couple of kids stole a Pontiac Aztec or something like that....

There might be a good cause to have the drivers and spotters in pace and safety cars wear helmets because of the aforementioned incidents. Even though they aren't racing they are in moving a fairly high rate of speed and there is always the possibility of a mishap or some unforeseen problem that may put the occupants in harms way.

[McRonalds]

There's an interesting story about a stolen pacecar in Sid Watkins' book (the first one) - but the pacecar was stolen (for good reason) by Carlos Reutemann when he had engine trouble with the original one - but I forgot the rest of the story. Can anyone help - I gave away that book recently... :

[Mike Argetsinger]

For both FrankB and rdrcr - of course I see your point. Let's just agree that we are operating with different sensibilities here. Helmets on pace car drivers is, from my perspective, just another step down the road to complete sanitation of motor sports. I can see why pit crews would want to wear fire proof materials - but I'm less sold on the merit of helmets on personnel working in the pits. The loss of vision and other sensory perceptions would seem to counter whatever benefit the helmets may provide. How do I explain the proliferation, etc. ? Go back to my original statement. We have a different point of view that's all. I am glad to have been part of the sport when it was all a bit less self concious and more of a pure sport. None of what you say is wrong - I've just been at it too long (I'm still a current formula car and sedan driver and raced most recently in a 24 Hour race at Moroso the weekend between Christmas and New Years). Something about the saying that I have been in it long enough to see it all change from a time when motor racing was dangerous and sex was safe. I respect your point of view and recognize that yours is the modern reality.

[rdrcr]

Well Mike, I suppose your are entitled to your perspective... And while I didn't make a strong case initially...

I see no sanitation of the sport by increasing the safety aspects where necessary. The inclusion of helmets in the pits is something I've been lobbing for some time. With your wealth of experience, surely you've seen different helmets for different purposes and the fact that a full coverage helmet like we wear when we race is a much different application than a tire changer might require. I propose the use of MX type helmets for that use and for fuel and vent men the use of full coverage helmets complete with balaclava would seem to be quite prudent. Communications inside those helmets from the crew chief or team manager to all crew members over the wall would be a definite advancement. When Michael Andretti left early from his pit stall in Rio 2000, he drove over his vent man and his his tire changer and nearly killed one of them. That crewman was very lucky to have survived that incident. I don't recall if he was wearing a helmet but I think he was and if so, I'll bet he's damn glad he did... In F1, the crewmen seem to be as protected as humanly possible and I wouldn't be surprised if this protocol was implemented throughout other racing series. As far as their use in a pace car is concerned, I'd think that it's nothing more than an increase in professionalism... I guess it's all how you look at it.

I don't understand your logic in claming that this increase in safety measures outweighs sensory benefits... I've haven't been active as long as you have but I've been in plenty of pit situations both as a driver and watching from behind the wall. In most instances, the entry from a professional racing car, be it CART, an endurance racer or stock car can be a terrifying sight when that car hits a patch of liquid or comes in too hot. There were an inordinate amount of pit incidents in NASCAR last year prompting a few teams to allow crewmen over the wall to use helmets if they so desired. This ever increasing trend isn't so much a matter of self-conciseness IMHO rather than a wakeup call to the obvious need for more protection. These crewmen should be entitled to more than their team caps to protect them. Perhaps more so than your entitlement of your opinion regarding whether or not they should use them.

However, I totally understand your frustration over the apparent sanitation of much of the guise of racing as it currently exists... what with TC, LC, programmable this and that, the exclusion of fans in the garages, at least in F1 anyway, and other isolating rules and regulations that remove a lot of the sensory gratitude that we found so captivating in earlier times. I'll agree that there has been a removal of many of the exciting and rewarding aspects of motorsports, but I fail to see how the increase of safety measures had anything to do with them other than the removal of certain precarious seating areas at some venues...

In closing, I understand that change may be a difficult thing for those who have survived those halcyon days of motorsport where, as you say, racing was dangerous and sex was safe... Now it's all dangerous...


Regards,

Richard

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Viktor
....Monaco 2000 the safty car crashed of the track in "Tabac" but that was after a practise session or before the start of the race (don't remember). The car was very damaged.

Monaco 1981.... a Lagonda, pride of the A-M fleet, was very badly damaged in circuit work, though not as a pace car.

[Catalina Park]

And the FIV (Doctors car) at Bathurst that spun at the Dipper in 1998 when it run out of brakes It wasn't me but I got the Job of bedding in the new pads

[Mila]

Originally posted by Rediscoveryx
Wasn't there an incident at a CART race in Miami in the early 90's, where both Mario and Michael Andretti crashed into a rescue vehicle?

Not really a pace car, but pretty darn close

I believe that that occurred at Detroit (late-80s, early-90s?). indeed, it was a difficult situation--a blind turn with a parked tow truck around the corner. even still, some found it telling that, while the first several drivers managed to safely pass, the two Andrettis eventually clogged things up. the incident caused a red flag.

the outcome of Inoue's Monaco incident could have been much worse. the SC driver, for shame, was carelessly showboating.

[Mike Argetsinger]

Originally posted by rdrcr
Well Mike, I suppose your are entitled to your perspective...

Richard

I am? Imagine that!

[Bernd]

Mike I'm with you. They'll be issuing Asbestos suits to the crowd next.

[rdrcr]

Originally posted by Mike Argetsinger
I am? Imagine that!

Imagine...

Originally posted by Bernd
Mike I'm with you. They'll be issuing Asbestos suits to the crowd next.

uhhh... I think that would be Nomex, as Asbestos has been declared unsafe.

[Ray Bell]

...only when breathed into your lungs. Eating it is fine.

I'm with Mike, but I do recall seeing a rear wheel of Michael Andretti's car going over a crewman's head a little while back.

This makes it a tough call, really... but I'd be out there in jeans myself.

[2F-001]

I seem to recall an endurance race (at a guess, Spa 24 hours, mid-70s?) when after a hefty accident in the evening, clearing up and barrier repairs took so long that the pace car had to make a refuelling stop. I assume they sent another car out (like a Birkett Six-hour relay!). I can't readily find this in a race report though...

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by Viktor
A must say it sounds very strange to use a driver who needs cones to know where to breake and turn in a big race like the Indy 500.
In Monaco 2000 the safty car crashed of the track in "Tabac" but that was after a practise session or before the start of the race (don't remember). The car was very damaged.

/Viktor

I am sure it was not in 2000 but some years previously at Monaco a modern-era Lagonda 'limo' was very severely damaged when it shunted the barriers in the Rascasse/Gazometre (???) area. The driver as I recall the incident was a past racing veteran - the late Harry O'Reilly Schell's surviving brother, Philippe - never Harry's equal when racing in earnest, and plainly time had done little to improve capability. It was understandable in some ways, however, because to smear one of those William Towns-styled Lagondas along a barrier was the easiest thing in the world, they were so wide and ridiculously long... But it doesn't qualify as 'a pace car'.

DCN

[John Schoen]

Originally posted by McRonalds
There's an interesting story about a stolen pacecar in Sid Watkins' book (the first one) - but the pacecar was stolen (for good reason) by Carlos Reutemann when he had engine trouble with the original one - but I forgot the rest of the story. Can anyone help - I gave away that book recently... :

That was the South African Grand Prix in 1985. The original pace car had a bad engine that leaked all kinds of fluids, so Reutemann and Watkins went to the car park by the paddock and found a car with the keys in the ignition. They transferred the medical kit, followed the pack for a part of the first lap and parked the car after the race at the same spot where they found it.