1143 replies to this topic

[WonderWoman61]

Yes, and he was linked to a possible move with an earlier Toyota F1 project because he was a tremendous development driver.

He was also linked to the stillborn TOM'S F1 project prior to his death.

[GMiranda]

He was also linked to the stillborn TOM'S F1 project prior to his death.

Yes, that's the Toyota project I was talking about.

[WonderWoman61]

Yes, that's the Toyota project I was talking about.

Understood

[GMiranda]

I think Ogawa would be a great F1 driver.

[Richard Jenkins]

I think Ogawa would be a great F1 driver.

He had the ability but not the aggressiveness or arrogance to have truly succeeded in Formula 1. He was particularly reluctant to overtake, but I suppose would have benefited from the change in pit strategy in the mid 90's. He would've just been swallowed up and been remembered as a midfield runner only.. which is unfair.
Not as unfair as what ultimately happened to him of course.

[ensign14]

Motor Sport this month: Vern Schuppan was going to be Beltoise's team-mate in a two-car BRM in 1973, then a third driver with Regga coming in, and then Lauda got the third seat, so he was restricted to testing and one-offs.

[GMiranda]

He had the ability but not the aggressiveness or arrogance to have truly succeeded in Formula 1. He was particularly reluctant to overtake, but I suppose would have benefited from the change in pit strategy in the mid 90's. He would've just been swallowed up and been remembered as a midfield runner only.. which is unfair.
Not as unfair as what ultimately happened to him of course.

Yes, he was extremely cautious and hadn't the kamikaze style of most Japanese drivers. However, this style on a midfielder team could be instrumental because he rarely crashed or broke the car and could grab points thanks to tactics, good tyre management, low fuel consumption, and playing the waiting game. Alas, I think several of the top Japanese drivers would be good enough for F1, but they never came or only did one-offs with bad cars or on the Japanese GP in 76 and 77. Those who came, in my opinion, weren't the best, but the ones with more money and/or manufacturer's liaisons. For example, Akihiko Nakaya, who would be Brabham's driver in 1992 if not for dodgy excuses not to give him a super license, only had the chance because he had massive sponsorship. Despite some great performances in Japanese F3000, Nakaya excelled in Touring Cars and GTs, being one of the best Japanese touring cars ever.

[GMiranda]

Motor Sport this month: Vern Schuppan was going to be Beltoise's team-mate in a two-car BRM in 1973, then a third driver with Regga coming in, and then Lauda got the third seat, so he was restricted to testing and one-offs.

Vern Schuppan surely deserved a complete F1 season with a good car, he did stellar performances everywhere, even in CART, with mediocre and/or low-budget teams.

[WonderWoman61]

Gary Paffett would have gone to Jordan in 2004 as part of a deal to run Mercedes engines badged as SMART.

Edited by WonderWoman61, 07 September 2022 - 12:59.

[WonderWoman61]

Danny Sullivan actually agreed to continue with Tyrrell in 1984 when Stefan Bellof wasn't available if he wasn't doing Indycar.

[WonderWoman61]

Anyone seen some of the old magazine/newspaper clippings that appear on the GP Rejects Forum? One such clipping claimed Roberto Ravaglia was once in the frame for a seat at Coloni!

[70JesperOH]

Anyone seen some of the old magazine/newspaper clippings that appear on the GP Rejects Forum? One such clipping claimed Roberto Ravaglia was once in the frame for a seat at Coloni!

 

This would have been in the latter part of the 1980s, when Ravaglia was married to BMW, but still did the odd Toyota Group C appearences?

 

Jesper

[WonderWoman61]

This would have been in the latter part of the 1980s, when Ravaglia was married to BMW, but still did the odd Toyota Group C appearences?
 
Jesper

Yes, alongside Moreno in 1989, according to Motoring News 5th October 1988.

Here's the link:

https://gprejects.co...opic.php?t=6174

[WonderWoman61]

https://www.motorspo...980s-f1-project

[WonderWoman61]

https://the-race.com...a-toyota-in-f1/ - According to this article, Toyota were looking to run Kamui Kobayashi and Sebastien Buemi in 2010, if that is true then that would have left Toro Rosso with a vacancy alongside Jaime Alguersuari so who would have filled it? Perhaps Danny Ric could have debuted a year and a half early?

Edited by WonderWoman61, 22 February 2023 - 19:41.

[bsc]

f that is true then that would have left Toro Rosso with a vacancy alongside Jaime Alguersuari so who would have filled it? Perhaps Danny Ric could have debuted a year and a half early?

I'd suggest Brendan Hartley who had been reasonable in Formula Renault 3.5 in 2009 and had tested for both Toro Rosso and Red Bull.

[WonderWoman61]

I'd suggest Brendan Hartley who had been reasonable in Formula Renault 3.5 in 2009 and had tested for both Toro Rosso and Red Bull.

Yes, I just remembered about Hartley so he probably would have got the nod, over 7 and a half years in advance.

[Henk Vasmel]

Recently I acquired a stack of Autorevue (Dutch Bi-weekly with an emphasis on motor racing).

 

While reading the articles that are still interesting, I found for this thread:

 

Autorevue 27 March 1981:

Rumour about the second Tyrrell seat for the rest of the season. Rothengatter looking for the last sponsor money to convince K.T., who is lacking a sponsor at this time.

 

Autorevue 24 April 1981:

In a meeting by Racing Team Holland, it was announced that Huub Rothengatter will definitely drive in Formula 1. Marlboro sponsoring will support him for the rest of the year in a Tyrrell.

 

Of course we all know (at least most of us) that the seat eventually to Michele Alboreto, who debuted on May 3rd.

 

Do we know the Tyrrell point of view on this?

[WonderWoman61]

I'd suggest Brendan Hartley who had been reasonable in Formula Renault 3.5 in 2009 and had tested for both Toro Rosso and Red Bull.

Or possibly Neel Jani or Takuma Sato since the latter did come close to replacing Sebastien Bourdais for 2009.

[GMiranda]

 

Recently I acquired a stack of Autorevue (Dutch Bi-weekly with an emphasis on motor racing).

 

While reading the articles that are still interesting, I found for this thread:

 

Autorevue 27 March 1981:

Rumour about the second Tyrrell seat for the rest of the season. Rothengatter looking for the last sponsor money to convince K.T., who is lacking a sponsor at this time.

 

Autorevue 24 April 1981:

In a meeting by Racing Team Holland, it was announced that Huub Rothengatter will definitely drive in Formula 1. Marlboro sponsoring will support him for the rest of the year in a Tyrrell.

 

Of course we all know (at least most of us) that the seat eventually to Michele Alboreto, who debuted on May 3rd.

 

Do we know the Tyrrell point of view on this?

 

 

It will be interesting to know about the news from that magazine. Often on small notes and boxes, there are interesting things we only see when reading the magazine carefully, as I've been doing with Portuguese Autosport.

I think it was entirely plausible, as the second car was up for sale. Tyrrell had lost Candy sponsorship to Toleman, and they only had Eddie Cheever, the second car was for the highest bidder until Alboreto came. I read somewhere that Ken Tyrrell wanted Desiré Wilson, but she had no money at all and only did South Africa.

[WonderWoman61]

Recently I acquired a stack of Autorevue (Dutch Bi-weekly with an emphasis on motor racing).
 
While reading the articles that are still interesting, I found for this thread:
 
Autorevue 27 March 1981:
Rumour about the second Tyrrell seat for the rest of the season. Rothengatter looking for the last sponsor money to convince K.T., who is lacking a sponsor at this time.
 
Autorevue 24 April 1981:
In a meeting by Racing Team Holland, it was announced that Huub Rothengatter will definitely drive in Formula 1. Marlboro sponsoring will support him for the rest of the year in a Tyrrell.
 
Of course we all know (at least most of us) that the seat eventually to Michele Alboreto, who debuted on May 3rd.
 
Do we know the Tyrrell point of view on this?

I think I remember reading about that somewhere but can't remember at the moment.

[ensign14]

Rob Wilson claimed to have had the second drive wrapped up as well until Alboreto turned up with the cash.  Although I struggle to see how he would have qualified for a licence.  Even Londoño-Bridge had raced at a higher level.

[Mallory Dan]

i recall the 80-81 off season being very interesting in rumour terms. There seemed to be vacancies at pretty much all the midfield/back of the grid teams like Arrows, Tyrrell, March, ATS, Ensign, Theodore, Osella. Of course drivers with money, and how much, was the main criteria. And with the FISA/FOCA was going on, it was an intriguing period! 

[spa2000overtake]

Did Michael Schumacher have ever series talks or negotiation with Williams team in 1990s and 2000s?

I know he had talks with Mclaren occasionally during 1990s and according to rumours he almost signed a deal with Mclaren in 1998. I am sure Frank would have contacted Schumacher at some point of hes career, because he managed to poach Ralf from Jordan team in 1998-1999.

[WonderWoman61]

Rob Wilson claimed to have had the second drive wrapped up as well until Alboreto turned up with the cash.  Although I struggle to see how he would have qualified for a licence.  Even Londoño-Bridge had raced at a higher level.

Rob Wilson was briefly linked to Life of all teams after Gary Brabham left!

[WonderWoman61]

Well, in more recent times, we can add Felipe Drugovich coming close to standing in for Lance Stroll at this weekend's Bahrain Grand Prix.

[WonderWoman61]

Now we can add Porsche's 2026 entry.

[shawnybantzy]

A small background on this - I've stumbled upon this thread a long while back and always found this extremely intriuging, and thus has inspired me to create a database containing driver/team rumors/almost-moves throughout the years from various racing series, from IndyCar to F1, NASCAR, FE, MotoGP etc, and I figured this should be the correct spot for it in the forum.

I intend for this to be more of a collab project, so if there's any rumors you have (if with sources, even better), feel free to add to the list!

https://docs.google....t#gid=600348968

[Zippel]

Did Michael Schumacher have ever series talks or negotiation with Williams team in 1990s and 2000s?

I know he had talks with Mclaren occasionally during 1990s and according to rumours he almost signed a deal with Mclaren in 1998. I am sure Frank would have contacted Schumacher at some point of hes career, because he managed to poach Ralf from Jordan team in 1998-1999.

 

Yes, Frank Williams most certainly wanted Schumacher driving for him. The biggest rumour was for 1996 as Schumi had made it clear he was leaving Benetton, however McLaren and Ferrari were the hotter favourites. I doubt Frank was willing to match what those teams would pay and driver status would have been another sticky point. Once Ralf joined the team, there was no possibility of Michael joining too.

[shawnybantzy]

So I've gone through the old 7thGear forum archives and found this goldmine (https://web.archive....riversteams.htm) - a prospective silly season list for the 2000 CART season - containing some tidbits, including Max Wilson, Erik Comas and Tom Kristensen to Walker Racing amongst other oddities!

Could anymore confirm that there was some form of legitimacy to those rumors, or was it merely another matter of selecting random names and flinging them against the wall?

Edited by shawnybantzy, 26 July 2023 - 12:29.

[HistoryFan]

We have an own thread about almost moves in IndyCar

https://forums.autos...in-cartusacirl/

[Michael Ferner]

Could anymore confirm that there was some form of legitimacy to those rumors, or was it merely another matter of selecting random names and flinging them against the wall?

 

Can you explain the difference?

[ensign14]

Can you explain the difference?

I think there are various stages, from most to least likely:

 

1. where drivers turned up to find no ride (Moss/Ferrari);

 

2. driver signed but something got in the way to stop them racing (Gavin/Pacific);

 

3. serious discussions that nearly led to a deal (Ferté/Ligier);

 

4. vague expressions of interest that got no further (most of these in the thread);

 

5. the kind of deal that could only happen in an infinite universe of infinite possibilities by the random accumulation of subatomic particles to create the simulacrum of a deal;

 

6. Heinz Prüller.

[kayemod]

 

5. the kind of deal that could only happen in an infinite universe of infinite possibilities by the random accumulation of subatomic particles to create the simulacrum of a deal;

 

6. Heinz Prüller.

 

Quiet please, my team of monkeys are trying to type.

[shawnybantzy]

Hmmmm, so I've opted to list some of the almost-moves I've compiled together in batches - first starting with excerpts taken from interviews in Motor Sport Magazine :

- Derek Warwick was tapped by Jackie Oliver to stand in for an injured Jochen Mass at Arrows for the 1980 Canadian GP, with a 5-year contract in waiting as well, but Derek turned it down believing Toleman was a better prospect with their (ultimately hapless) Hart engine. In addition to being vetoed by Ayrton Senna for the 1986 Lotus drive, Frank Williams had approached him for a seat at Williams for 1985 in place of Jacques Lafitte, but after some consideration he opted to remain at Renault.
https://www.motorspo...-derek-warwick/

- Having fallen out with Flavio Briatore post '97, Jean Alesi spoke with Stewart for a drive in '98, but they said no as they were still a growing team at the time - he thus raced with Sauber for the next 2 years, which he enjoyed a lot.
https://www.motorspo...nch-jean-alesi/

- After 1983, John Watson was out of McLaren in favour of Alain Prost - he received a formal offer from Lotus for '84 potentially in place of Nigel Mansell but turned it down. He was also in talks with Toleman for 1985 along with Roberto Moreno, Stefan Johansson and Jo Gartner, but the tyre contract woes with Pirelli put paid to those plans.
https://www.motorspo...port-interview/ 

- Speaking of Johansson, Shadow had originally tapped Beppe Gabbiani and Renzo Zorzi for the 1980 Argentine GP providing they came up with funding but said funding never materialised - the two seats instead went to Johansson and Dave Kennedy. Johansson was also in the running for the 2nd Tyrrell seat in 1983 along with Beppe Gabbiani and Bruno Giacomelli but it was Danny Sullivan who snapped it up instead. 
https://www.motorspo...efan-johansson/

- Ivan Capelli was approached by Benetton to deputise for an injured Alessandro Nannini for the 1990 Japanese GP, but turned it down to honour his contract with Leyton House. He had originally signed with BMS Scuderia Italia for 1992, but Ferrari came in and bought out his contract, which turned out to be a career-wrecker for Ivan.
https://www.motorspo...h-ivan-capelli/

- Mercedes offered financial backing for Karl Wendlinger for his debut with an Ilmor-powered team for 1992 ahead of their return with Sauber the following year : the first option was Tyrrell, provided that they bring $3.5 million to the team and that no sponsor logos be placed on the car. The Austrian instead opted for March.
https://www.motorspo...arl-wendlinger/

- Before his helicopter crash, Alessandro Nannini was offered a contract by Cesare Florio for 1991, but he rejected it as it dictated he could be signed by a Ferrari-powered team and not Ferrari itself.
https://www.motorspo...caffeine-racer/

- Alex Caffi had approaches from 2 teams following his breakthrough 1989 season - Lotus made a formal offer for him but turned it down as Caffi felt they were not competitive enough. He too met with Williams, but he had a $1 million release clause with BMS Scuderia Italia which they were not prepared to pay.
https://www.motorspo...134/alex-caffi/

- Mark Blundell was in discussions with Sauber for 1996, but they wanted a GP winner which came in the form of Johnny Herbert. He subsequently moved over to the States that year in CART, edging out the likes of Mike Groff, Dominic Dobson, Allan McNish and JJ Lehto for the 2nd PacWest seat.
https://www.motorspo...port-interview/

- Eddie Jordan made an offer for Juan Pablo Montoya for 1999, but Frank Williams refused to let him out of his contract. JPM was loaned out to Ganassi for CART that year - safe to say things went plenty well for him.....
https://www.motorspo...-pablo-montoya/

- Stephen South, Eddie Cheever, Jan Lammers, Elio de Angelis and Nigel Mansell took part in a test for Lotus at Paul Ricard over the 79-80 off-season - South was the quickest of the bunch, but the 2nd seat went to de Angelis instead. South was offered a testing deal as compensation, but he turned it down : Nigel Mansell accepted it instead..... That same year, after Alain Prost was sidelined post his Kyalami shunt, Hans-Joachim Stuck was approached to replace him at McLaren but turned it down : South snapped up the drive but with limited testing time and a recalcitrant package, South was at sea and wound up DNQing for Long Beach.
https://www.motorspo...e-been-mansell/

- Emerson Fittipaldi could have made his GP debut, not with Lotus as in RL, but with Frank Williams - FW would have partnered him up with Piers Courage for 1970, but Emmo turned it down as he wanted more experience first. A year later, Ferrari made a play for him by offering double of what Colin Chapman was paying him, but also wanted him in their sportscar programme too which Emmo was opposed to. After leaving Lotus in 1973, he had talks with Brabham and Tyrrell before finally settling on McLaren.  
https://www.motorspo...son-fittipaldi/ 

Edited by shawnybantzy, 08 August 2023 - 13:12.

[HistoryFan]

Alesi to Stewart and Montoya to Jordan would have been pretty cool.

[Beri]

Montoya to Jordan?

[WonderWoman61]

AlphaTauri almost hired Colton Herta for this season but he wasn't granted a super licence.

[HistoryFan]

when you see what's happened to Nyck de Vries that isn't a shame. But I would love to see him in Formula 1.

 

Also Alex Palou was rumoured to McLaren, Williams and Alpha Tauri for 2024, but nothing comes to anything.

[WonderWoman61]

https://www.theracet...never-happened/
Mark Webber testing for McLaren.

[WonderWoman61]

Was Dan Gurney meant to drive the Derrington-Francis-ATS at some point? He tested it but crashed it, damaging the team's only chassis enough to prevent it from making any further appearances in 1964.

[Michael Ferner]

A big headline on page one of Corriere dello Sport in September 1954 asked, "Fangio to Alfa Romeo?"

[WonderWoman61]

Luiz Razia replacing Timo Glock at Marussia for the 2013 F1 Season until his sponsors failed to pay up and he lost his seat to the late Jules Bianchi after the first pre-season test.

[WonderWoman61]

Marco Lucchinelli almost tested for Ferrari in the 1980s.