597 replies to this topic

[Doug Nye]

The originally-Franz Kitzerau 1936-37 2-litre Alta sports - supposedly chassis serial '64S' - was sold by Bonhams in Paris last week for £306,000.  Goodness me.  Ex-John Ruston, I believe?

 

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 10 February 2018 - 21:54.

[cooper997]

Lot 308 link

http://www.bonhams.c...ength=90&page=1

 

Stephen

[fivestar]

The originally-Franz Kitzerau 1936-37 2-litre Alta sports - supposedly chassis serial '64S' - was sold by Bonhams in Paris last week for £306,000.  Goodness me.  Ex-John Ruston, I believe?

 

DCN

Originally Bob Wood who I believe sold to John Ruston for US$180,000.00 in 2001. Bob hoped to get at least US$85,000.00 when he advised me he was looking to sell in 1998.

[fivestar]

An interesting article with some photos of KMP977 #70, which won the Rally.

 

http://www.sportscar...=Ix1ELaeFV8s.C0

[cooper997]

Just placed this 10/7/46 The Motor piece here... https://forums.autos...-saloon-a-myth/

 

May as well be on this main Alta thread too.

 

Stephen

[MarkHealy]

I've uploaded an images of Louis (Luis?) Manduca's rebodied chassis #69 at the Curragh and others of Joe Kelly's GP3 based Irish Racing Automobile Special in a gallery of my late father's photos here https://www.flickr.c...157711423456471

I'm continuing to work through his negative library so I may turn up more.

 

Mark

[Steve L]

Great pictures!

The Hudson Delage is very interesting. Is this based on the remains of the Delage 1 works racing car?

[MarkHealy]

Great pictures!

The Hudson Delage is very interesting. Is this based on the remains of the Delage 1 works racing car?

 

Not sure. I'm currently researching its background. I have been told it was based on car which suffered a fire at Phoenix Park and was rebuilt in the form pictured with a Hudson engine. On that basis I guess it should be more accurately named as a Delage Hudson.

 

Mark

[cooper997]

Through moffspeed's tipoff in the Motor Sport magazine thread...

 

4/66 Motor Sport Grand Prix Formula II ultra lightweight Alta 1953,  ex P N Whitehead etc, fitted with Repco Holden 180bhp engine, spare wheels, tyres, diff, a well maintained handsome race car, ready to use, Price ST £675 landed UK, J A Harwood 19 Barnfield Rd Claremont Western Australia Tel 3-3983 p332

 

Despite listed as 1953 as far as I'm aware, Peter was racing this car in 1952.

 

Stephen

Edited by cooper997, 31 October 2019 - 23:32.

[john ruston]

Just found this thread again!
Just to clarify matters 64S the LHD 2 litre was bought by me from a guy in Philadelphia in about 2000 .He had it stored in a shed for years and I sold it to Mr Fernandez who used Bonhams to dispose of it a couple of years ago.I understand it’s now in Belgium..Don’t know where the Bob Wood story came from but I am not aware he had any involvement in sales of any 2 litre cars.
I bought 70 from Australia in 2007 and have only recently started using it.
Gareth Burnett won Flying Scotsman Rally with it in 2018 and has has now won the MRL race at Spa .Only entered rally when we were told an Alta could never win a road rally so decided to take on the number 1 event in Europe!
Idea was to sell it so we could buy a single seater but have put that idea on back burner as Gareth is driving the David Baldock single seater and that seems quite competitive looking at recent Goodwood Revival result.
We will do the major MRL races in 2020 with Unblown Alta 70 .
Think EJJ has changed hands again but not sure of details.

[fivestar]

John,

  This is were Bob Wood comes in.

 

>Sent: Monday, March 06, 2000 6:20 PM
>To: BWood@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: ALTA

>       Bob,
>       Thought that I'd send you a short message and enquire how your  thoughts are progressing on the sale of your Alta.
>       best regards,
>
>       Michael 

Edited by fivestar, 01 December 2019 - 01:36.

[john ruston]

Got you
Bob never had an Alta?
The Invicta went on for ever!
Who is Michael Hennessy?
It’s twenty years ago.
Bob was involved in putting the grid together for Pre War race at Silverstone Festival which at the time was by far the most important Pre War sports car race anywhere. Before Goodwood and Le Mans Classic .
He wanted to put together a three car Alta team for his race.
Thought it a good idea for me to buy three Altas
It all fell apart due to the new races and the move of Coys Festival from Silverstone to Rockingham.
The bit that didn’t was that I have owned four of the six two litre sports cars!

[fivestar]

Got you
Bob never had an Alta?
The Invicta went on for ever!
Who is Michael Hennessy?
It’s twenty years ago.
Bob was involved in putting the grid together for Pre War race at Silverstone Festival which at the time was by far the most important Pre War sports car race anywhere. Before Goodwood and Le Mans Classic .
He wanted to put together a three car Alta team for his race.
Thought it a good idea for me to buy three Altas
It all fell apart due to the new races and the move of Coys Festival from Silverstone to Rockingham.
The bit that didn’t was that I have owned four of the six two litre sports cars!

Bob Wood owned 64s in the States and sold it to you on March 31, 2000 according to an email i have from him. He even provided me with your address and Fax number. I even had a number of fax exchanges with you on the matter whilst you were in the middle east.

Edited by fivestar, 01 December 2019 - 10:38.

[john ruston]

Obviously he had all the paperwork as the car was bought to make up the team of three with all cars owned by me!
I did the deal with an American so I assume Bob made a bob or two out of the deal because checking the import paperwork and invoice for import Bobs name is not included!
It’s totally irrelevant twenty years later as I paid for car which was in appalling condition and had a total rebuild before luckily winning a race at the ring
The Pre War Coys race was abandoned so buying cars was a waste!
All the DSJ letters about history of car are still with me.

[Doug Nye]

Forgive me for not being - in any way - up to speed with the Alta world as it exists at present but this evening, while hunting for some old files on another subject I came across DSJ's copy of the pre-war Alta factory foreman's notebook, and his listing of the 29-30 odd cars built pre-war by Geoffrey Taylor's company.  If this is already in the public arena, or available within the Alta circle, I'm glad to hear that this is the case.

 

But it's not, while I'm not going to post it all here, if anyone currently has specific questions about the early history of a pre-war Alta I might now be able to assist with a little contemporary information.

 

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 13 March 2021 - 22:02.

[NicolasB]

Forgive me for not being - in any way - up to speed with the Alta world as it exists at present but this evening, while hunting for some old files on another subject I came across DSJ's copy of the pre-war Alta factory foreman's notebook, and his listing of the 29-30 odd cars built pre-war by Geoffrey Taylor's company.  If this is already in the public arena, or available within the Alta circle, I'm glad to hear that this is the case.

 

But it's not, while I'm not going to post it all here, if anyone currently has specific questions about the early history of a pre-war Alta I might now be able to assist with a little contemporary information.

 

DCN

In a garage not far from me, they are working on 64S. If you would have anything on that car that would be kind. It was the only one LHD Alta I believe?

best regards,

 

Nicolas

[Doug Nye]

In a garage not far from me, they are working on 64S. If you would have anything on that car that would be kind. It was the only one LHD Alta I believe?

best regards,

 

Nicolas

 

Not much recorded on this one either (see main Forum) - "No 64S - (No initial customer named) - Sports 2-seater - To Berlin".

 

Then - another page:  "Sold to Franz Kitzerau, Berlin - Delivered October 10th, 1937 - Engine No: 64S".

 

Sorry - little more.

 

DCN

[Vitesse2]

Somebody's looking for the ex-Dot Oxenden chassis #20, which seems to have gone across the pond - not sure if any of this is new information, but it's all grist to the mill ...

 

Information sought on rare race car lost since 1976

 

The registration plate on the photo taken at Brooklands - EGP903 - tallies with DSJ's listing which Doug showed us; it seems David McKinney's notes, quoted in post 27 back in 2003, were one letter out (or misread). In post 8, David also mentioned a pre-war Alta which was reportedly in the States, speculating it might have been 64S - so maybe it was actually 20?

[NeillMurdoch]

I am very pleased to be able to report that my brother and I have just acquired the late Graeme Lowe's red 2 litre Alta from Betty Lowe. Graeme died 2 years ago after a period of deteriorating health.

 

The car is #55S. The bare bones of its history are as follows: it was delivered new to WWS (Bill) Bennett of Surbiton on 19 February 1936, seemingly as as a 1.5 litre. It was registered DPG 167. He raced it at Brooklands and other venues. It was raced by George Abecassis in 1938 and 1939 at Crystal Palace and elsewhere although it seems to have remained in the ownership of Bennett. Subsequently it was sold to T. Pinquet, then J. Bateson before ending up in the Black Museum. I do not know when. It was certainly the property of Gordon Black in 1982 when it went on loan to Brooklands for a display. The person responsible for its return to the Black Museum did not return it but instead sold it anonymously, via a professional intermediary, to Graeme Lowe in Australia. Needless to say, Graeme had no idea of these events and, when they came to light, entered into an agreement to buy the car from Mr Black in 1985. He was obliged to pay for it again.

 

Graeme was actively campaigning his offset single seater 56S at the time and did not set about the restoration of 55S until he had restored 21S and sold 56S. He had 55S on the road, in superb restored condition, by 2009 and used it until ill health intervened.

 

We are keen to fill in the gaps in the car's history so any information which is available would be greatly appreciated - particularly from the DSJ records if possible.

 

I should add that the Lowe 1100 #21S has been acquired by my sister and her husband so we are doing our bit to keep the cars together.

[Steve L]

Congratulations to your family for the great purchases (and for having such good taste!)!

It would be great to learn of any additional history which you may turn up, and to possibly see some photos later please?

[NeillMurdoch]

 

First try at posting a photo.

 

This is the car at Lewes. Can anyone identify the occupants and date?

[cooper997]

Neil, congratulations to you and your family on helping keep these interesting cars 'down under'. One imagines Graeme would be happy with this result. 

 

Unfortunately I only have 3 Lewes dates listed in my incomplete files. What I believe was Sat, 9/5/36 Kent & Sussex Light Car Club ran an event. 12/5/36 The Motor has a report. I can't see mention of an Alta though. However finding a programme would certainly help see if it was entered.

 

If you look in post 1 of this thread started by DCN... https://forums.autos...inor-treasures/

you can probably discount 4/9/37 BOC Lewes Speed Trials, as car 18 is listed as a Bugatti.

 

Somewhere here I have supp regs for the VSCC run 9/7/38 Lewes meeting. But as I tap this not sure of much else. It may well be worth signing up the newly digitised Autocar magazine archive to search out events and dates.

 

 

Stephen

Edited by cooper997, 11 March 2022 - 21:59.

[cooper997]

Neil, by pure chance my visit to Phillip Island Classic yesterday netted 'Klemantaski's Photo Album Motor Racing Scrapbook No.1' in my 'purchases' of the day. 

 

Last night I looked at TNF to see the Alta ownership news followed by flicking through the Klem booklet. This photo appears in it from 1939 Crystal Palace...

 

 

May well be worth contacting via pm 'Klemcoll' here on TNF. You might find they have the original neg still.

 

 

Stephen

 

[dgs]

According to Jeremy Wood's book 'Speed on the Downs - Lewes Speed Trials 1924-1939' the following Alta drivers competed at Lewes:
G.Abecassis, W.W.S. Bennett, P.Clark, R.Cowell, K.Gammon, H.J.Griffiths, H.Hunter, R.R.Jackson, C.Mortimer, G.Taylor, J.P. Wakefield, E.Winterbottom
For each meeting it does give class winners, name and car + time, no entry number shown.

Quite a number of photographs in the book. Only two show Alta drivers: 12-06-1937, Geoffrey Taylor (Alta 2-litre) and 09-07-1938, Eric Winterbottom (Alta 1100cc) both bareheaded, neither look like drivers in pictures - lack of hair. I do not believe the driver in photo at Lewes is George Abecassis.

[NeillMurdoch]

Thank you Steve L and Stephen.

I think Betty Lowe was pleased that the cars will stay together.

 

I agree that the Lewes photo does not depict Geoffrey Taylor, who is generally pretty easy to spot. There are lots of coats and jackets in the background which suggests that it wasn't the height of summer but appearances can be deceptive. The road looks dry enough.

 

I have pondered whether the driver might be George Abecassis but I really can't tell. If there is a record of Bill Bennett entering at Lewes then he must be a good chance as the Alta would likely have been his most suitable car.

 

I'm very curious as to when the 1.5 litre Altas became 2 litres - looks to have been before 1939.

[jimturner]

Thank you Steve L and Stephen.

I think Betty Lowe was pleased that the cars will stay together.

 

I agree that the Lewes photo does not depict Geoffrey Taylor, who is generally pretty easy to spot. There are lots of coats and jackets in the background which suggests that it wasn't the height of summer but appearances can be deceptive. The road looks dry enough.

 

I have pondered whether the driver might be George Abecassis but I really can't tell. If there is a record of Bill Bennett entering at Lewes then he must be a good chance as the Alta would likely have been his most suitable car.

 

I'm very curious as to when the 1.5 litre Altas became 2 litres - looks to have been before 1939.

HI Neill,

 

I have quite a few photos of your car in pre-war days.

Also I have a good idea as to the date and driver in your Lewes photo.

I have sent you a PM

 

JIm

Edited by jimturner, 14 March 2022 - 20:29.

[fivestar]

What I find interesting about the Lewes photo is that there is a passenger and that neither driver or passenger are wearing googles etc. Was this a requirement for the speed trial?

I also note the car has 2 aero screens when most of the photos I have seen only have one.

Edited by fivestar, 13 March 2022 - 23:30.

[NeillMurdoch]

The car does have two aero screens but also a full width flat screen which is folded flat - raised it would have been in front of the aero screens. A feature it no longer has.

 

Other photos I have seen of cars at Lewes show passengers being carried apparently in competition. By the slightly concerned yet stoic look on the passenger's face and the state of the driver's hair the car must have had some speed up. 

 

I can also report that the aero screens offer reasonable protection - a lot better than nothing.

Edited by NeillMurdoch, 14 March 2022 - 10:53.

[dgs]

What I find interesting about the Lewes photo is that there is a passenger and that neither driver or passenger are wearing googles etc. Was this a requirement for the speed trial?

I also note the car has 2 aero screens when most of the photos I have seen only have one.

Photos in 'Speed on the Downs' book show drivers even in last year of events 1939 driving bare headed, even showing a woman entrant Miss Monica Strain (Mrs Whincop) driving a Bugatti T43 at 15th July 1939 event

[Vitesse2]

There was no requirement for headgear or goggles in RAC regulations. Here's Norman Wilson during a race at Brooklands in 1939:

 

https://klemcoll.wor...of-klemantaski/

 

Peter Whitehead eschewed headgear at (at least) both the 1938 Australian GP and Rob Roy - at the latter he doesn't seem to have bothered with goggles either!

 

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
.....Peter Whitehead eschewed headgear at (at least) both the 1938 Australian GP and Rob Roy - at the latter he doesn't seem to have bothered with goggles either!
 

An unusual view for Rob Roy...

Perhaps another hillclimb?





And the main reason for quoting was to get the photo in a larger size, without the advertisement encroaching on its space.

[jimturner]

Hi Neill,

 

I have sent you the information on 55S

There will be a bit more to come in a few days.

 

 

Here's Norman Wilson during a race at Brooklands in 1939:

 

https://klemcoll.wor...of-klemantaski/

 

Peter Whitehead eschewed headgear at (at least) both the 1938 Australian GP and Rob Roy - at the latter he doesn't seem to have bothered with goggles either!

 

As the subject of this thread is Alta, in the Historical Research Subforum, surely it would be more appropriate to illustrate the point you are making with photos of Altas, rather than ERAs?

Surely you have some appropriate photos in your archive?

[jimturner]

Apart from Neil’s recent posts this thread on Alta has been largely inactive for some time.

For those seriously interested in the marque there is an active Facebook group ‘Alta Racers’ which has participation from several Alta owners and several historians.

[NeillMurdoch]

Historic England has a great newly announced feature: searchable aerial photos taken over the years of much of England.

 

This is a link to a photo taken of Surbiton on 7 May 1947.

 

https://historicengl..._UK_2052_V_5358

 

The image is orientated broadly north / south. Running broadly east/west about 2/3 of the way up the image is the Kingston bypass (the A3). Fuller's Way intersects with the Kingston bypass to the east of the big Hook Road roundabout. At the south eastern corner of the Fuller's Way intersection is an empty triangle of land and to the south of it are two long sheds - which were the home of Alta.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by jimturner
Apart from Neil’s recent posts this thread on Alta has been largely inactive for some time.
For those seriously interested in the marque there is an active Facebook group ‘Alta Racers’ which has participation from several Alta owners and several historians.

At least you can find an inactive thread here are revitalise it...

How about encouraging some of the ones on the facebook group to come join us here?

[ACFGMKIII]

Hello, like Neill, simply to report I recently took ownership of Alta PK4053, Geoffrey Taylor's 1100 sports of 1928. I'm grateful to Philip Bradley the previous owner for letting me take up the torch.

Given the car's history I hope she can be seen again soon at suitable UK events, and help pass along the Alta and Geoffrey Taylor story.

She's driving well but will benefit some refurbishment this year, always respecting the wonderful sense of age that has accumulated.

I look forward to building up the history file further - while I have a respectable assortment of photographs and some idea of the early competition history, suggestions for further research will be gratefully received.

 

Alastair Gillespie

 

 

[NeillMurdoch]

Congratulations on your purchase Alastair. I am sure you will enjoy it.

 

Neill

[NeillMurdoch]

 

I have recently come into possession of a quantity of photos, none of which are labelled but which date to the period just before WW2 and into the late forties and early fifties.

 

I am reliably informed that this image dates from the 1948 Australian Grand Prix when 56S was entered by Tony Gaze. It started from scratch but completed only 5 laps or so.

[NeillMurdoch]

And further photos of the same event.

 

Can anyone identify the man in the sports jacket?

[NeillMurdoch]

 

From the same collection, this is 54S at Brooklands before it became EOY8. Date yet to be established but possibly 1938.

[cooper997]

Neil, great photos.

 

Hair and ears suggest Tony Gaze in the sports jacket.

 

 

Stephen

[cooper997]

Neil, thinking a little more on the sports jacket related photos make me wonder if they are the AGP... stinking hot day and all. Unless taken earlier on or being very stoic. Feb 48 AMS has a snippet in Spotlight "Tony Gaze had withdrawn the scratch car after a boiling practice lap already,..." and in the end he started and had magneto issues in the race.

 

 

Stephen

[cooper997]

February 1948 AMS cover with the Gaze Alta at Point Cook for the 1948 Australian GP meeting.

 

 

 

Stephen

[NeillMurdoch]

You might be right Stephen.

 

The background to the photos I have posted, in particular the first one, doesn't look much like the wide open and unshaded spaces of Point Cook airfield. And maybe the car acquired a set of Dunlop racing tyres by the time of the Grand Prix - very different to the tyres in the other photos.

[cooper997]

Yesterday I received a large swag of car mags from a good friend, Lindsay Siebler. Some going back to just post-conflict (the Hitler one, not Putin). Including The Motor that this Alta feature comes from.

 

 

 

 

Stephen

Edited by cooper997, 20 June 2022 - 00:18.

[cooper997]

When Alta was in the new car classifieds, 22/8/39 The Motor

 

 

 

and getting ERA fanciers stirred up from the Correspondence pages of the same issue.

 

 

 

Stephen

[racingreen]

Just spent a couple of entertaining hours ploughing through this thread

 

 

Since the free lunch with Image Shack is over I apologise in advance if the answer to my question was once obvious to see here, but can any one advise me as to which "Alta GP chassis" the body of Charles Fripp's Gomm Special, seen above, might once have resided on as  hinted at half way down this FISCAR blurb ?  

I believe the Gomm body was built upon Alta #67 I.S.

Registered XPJ 919 as an Alta-Aston.

David

[MarkBisset]

 

Ted Gray aboard Alta 21S Ford V8 aka the Male Special at Aspendale Speedway, 25km bayside south of Melboune, Australia. Circa 1940

 

In the period immediately before sale to Ron Edgerton and his early-wartime back to bare chassis rebuild 

 

(Cameron S McLaren Collection)