27 replies to this topic

[F1razor]

Hey guys, just wanted to share an enjoyable exchange I had about NASCAR v. F1 over at irace. I think RainMan is a candidate to be recruited for atlasf1. I am still quite proud of my original recruit from irace. Non other than Pit Babe!!

Anyway, some background. Someone posted a thread on the Formula One forum stating that NASCAR is supreme and that F1 is a Mclaren/Ferrari procession. Then RainMan jumped in, and then I jumped in...below is our posts:

RainMan:

Racing a roadcourse might be harder than racing an oval IF the cars weren't driven by computers. Also, it's a little easier to drive a car tha light compared to a car that weighs 4300 Lbs. Besides, I always want to watch the most competitive race, not just the most prestigious.

(more slinging by F1 purests)

RainMan:

Well, for one thing, I mean all of that telemetry stuff they use to set up the cars, and keep track of performance. Also, while the transmissions aren't full automatics, I don't recall seeing too many F1 drivers reach down and grab a gear-shift lately. Don't get me wrong, F1 drivers are very skilled and brave, but I get sick of hearing people tell me that my NASCAR drivers are inferior. A racecar driver is a racecar driver no matter what type of course they driver, or
what type of car they drive. Each driver in each form of racing must adapt to the cars and courses. No NASCAR driver could go to F1 and kick butt right away, and conversely, no F1 driver could come to NASCAR and kick butt right away. However, each type of driver deserves equal respect.

(Still more mud slingling)

Then I joine the fray:

f1racer:

People people, don't you see the genious of the original posters intent? It's designed to draw out all the possible stereotypes both sides have.

I personally think it's a tougher challenge to drive a Grand Prix car....but that is just my opinion.

But let's attack the stereotypes here a bit:

NASCAR. The saying goes, a monkey could drive a taxi cab. That I have to disagree with. The heaviness of a NASCAR is actually a PROBLEM, not a gift to lesser skilled drivers. I'll tell you why. NASCAR is an endurance sport. You can't muscle a NASCAR around an oval. You have to coax it. If your drive a NASCAR 10/10ths all the time, you'll tear up your tires, and spin out and crash. So, the skill is in taking the car to the edge without losing the race in the early laps.
The whole point of a 500 mile race is to be there at the end, and time your aggressive run just right. Some guys wait until 10 laps are left and try to run away with the race, some guys try to storm from the back in the last 2 laps. There is all kinds of strategy and sand bagging going on too. Personally, I find the end of a NASCAR race fascinating, because everyone has to show thier hole card.

Formula One:

This is a totally different discipline. Here you have ultra light cars with all kinds of grip that can be muscled. Consequently, the 'edge' is very thin indeed. There is usually only one racing line, and you have to push push push! Witness the incredible fitness of F1 drivers and their relative youth. The telemetry actually makes if TOUGHER on a
driver because you can be scrutinized with a microscope and be told "You are too slow in this sector...figure out why and fix it now, and oh BTW, your contract is up this year". You also have to become very good at putting the power done out of slow corners, and the only limitation to your braking ability is the strength in your left (in some cases right) leg. Semi automatic gear boxes have raised the bar. You can now shift in the MIDDLE of a corner, and keeping both hands
on the wheel ulimately makes you faster and smoother. Also, your are flick flick flick flick'ing all day long, and a mistake is still possible. Stalling the car in an otherwise non-ending race day spin is a distinct possibilty.

I could go on...but let's not fall victem to such base stereotypes on either side of this debate.

RainMan:

Thank you f1 fan. The kind of objectivity you've shown is all I was looking for. Like I said before, it takes skill to drive any kind of race car. As you stated though, it takes different kinds of skill to drive each type of car. I prefer NASCAR because it is a marathon where long-term strategy comes into play. However, I undestand that some people prefer the more all-out style of F1. I also thank you for realizing that the weight of a Cup car is a hinderance, rather than a help. The way I see it, that weight makes up for the slower speeds, whereas the sheer speed of F1 cars makes up for the lack of weight. I wish there were more fans like you that can state thier point and admire other series rather than bash them based on stereotypes.

f1racer:

Good to see we can debate openly and honestly now.

The primary reason (among others I won't go into) I find Grand Prix racing a more precise endeavor than NASCAR, is the concentration levels. We can debate what is more of a physical drain, a 500 mile race or the G's of a Grand Prix till we are blue in the face. Looks to me like both kind of drivers are tired at the end of a race.

However, that said...our toughest challenge, Monaco, is unrivaled, IMO. It's a race where perfection is required, and unbroken concentration is the key to victory. It's an unfortunate consequence of oval racing that yellow flags are used a lot, this gives the driver little 'breaks' during the race. In F1, at this level of racing, youthfull reflexes are required, and really the only way to lightening fast reflexes, is superb physical conditioning and rigorous training programs, and unfortanetly for fans who like to see veteran drivers, youth. In that respect, I do find F1 a stiffer challenge, and therefore agree that it is the top of motorsport. You will find that most of the F1 drivers on the grid cross train in Football, Rock Climbing, Motocross, Skiing, Bicycling, and similar sports. And they stay in shape all year round, and with some exceptions I am sure, they do not eat burgers and fries and drink beer.

In fact if I were Rubens Barrichello, who wants to find out what he is made of against Michael Schumacher, I'd be training my @ss off because I'm telling you...that man is in INCREDIBLE shape.

However, I am not stating this to 'marginalize' NASCAR, as many of you fans like to accuse F1 fans of.

RainMan:

One thing that yellow flags do is that they keep the race interesting. We had a caution free race this year at Michigan, and it was a complete snoozer. The disparity in different sets of tires and the inability to make suffiecient changes under green results in many cars getting lapped that would have been able to later win the race had they had a aution to catch up. Once again, this reverts back to the fact that I prefer close side by side racing to the type of competition in
F1. Cautions would indeed hinder the quality of F1 style racing, but they improve the competition level of NASCAR. As for the physical aspect, although I don't know the stats of each driver, I can vouch that Mark Martin is under 6% body fat and , except for now with a brief break due to back surgery, he is up every morning around 4 or 5 to begin a rigorous workout regimen. In fact, the one problem the Dr encountered when he performed the fusion suregery on Mark's back is that he could not find any fat on which to attach the bone-growth stimulator. Once again, I think it all comes down to the kinds of qualities we look for in a good race. I look for close competition and long-term strategy while you look for your drivers pushing cars to the limit every lap, albeit somewhat distanced from the other cars. So, while you think F1 is the best because of the concentration level, I think that NASCAR is the best because of the competition and entertainment value.

I forgot to mention that I agree wholeheartedly that NASCAR doesn't require the youthful reflexes that F1 does, but I
like the fact that a NASCAR driver's career can last and be very successful into his 50's, although some such as Darrell Waltrip have not been able to perform at

[Don Capps]

F1R,

This was an interesting exchange to read. Why don't you ask RainMan to drop by for a visit. I really enjoyed the discussion. It was an excellent coverage of many of the major points that often get overlooked. It would be nice to see him over here.

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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

Semper Gumbi: If this was easy, we’d have the solution already…

[F1razor]

Exchanged some email with him...and he promises he is on his way.

I just hope he stays a member, I REALLY miss bantering with Pit Babe, you know!! Hell, she won't even tell us her favorite driver!!

Rich!! When RainMan gets here, please don't recruit him!!!

[Statesidefan]

F-1 Razor,

I loved your assessment of the strategy involved in a NASCAR race as opposed to a F-1 race. I would suggest that we all sit down this June and watch the 24 Hours of LeMans. It does seem like the logical median between F-1 and NASCAR. I think Rain Man would enjoy Sports Cars (ALMS, Grand Am, or ISRS)

I am amazed at the time and effort you put into quality posts. It always good to see your posts here. In light of Don, Dennis, Todd, Fast One and, even Joe; I often feel out of my depth here.



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"The strategy of a Formula One race is very simple. It's flat out from the minute the flag drops." Mario Andretti 1976

[Dennis David]

State - There's no depth to be out of! Imagine you're at the local watering hole talking cars and racing. That's what this forum is all about. Being at ease and shooting the breeze.

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Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

[Joe Fan]

Rainman left out plenty of excellent points in his debate for NASCAR and the skills required of their drivers. Especially in the area of reflexes required of stock car drivers. I choose not to participate any longer in these F1 vs. NASCAR debates because I have found that it is like arguing with a brickwall and all it does is inflame the F1-only types. The two sports are apples and oranges all the way down to the cars, the point systems and physical and mental attributes and skills necessary as a driver. It would be like arguing who are better athletes, soccer or hockey players. Both sports are similar in a lot of ways but yet completely different in the type of conditioning and skills needed.

All I have to say is that no rookie driver has ever won a NASCAR Winston Cup championship and there have been quite a few IndyCar and F1 drivers who won their first race and also the championship in the same year. This hasn't been done in NASCAR since 1950.

[Dennis David]

Hey Joe what do you think of Tony Stewart? Seems like the guy has loads of talent.

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Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

[F1razor]

Yeah, OK, Joe Fan. The above was a good and honest debate. You are just as NASCAR exclusionary as any of us 'F1 only' fans...

It's too bad you are taking your ball and bat and going home, because you are the one that basically started the debates. And I have noticed a few of us on 'our side' have learned from you and are attitudes towards NASCAR have changed from our discourse. I know mine have.

You on the other hand have not budged a single inch. Which is fine with me.

Just please don't represent yourself as unbiased. Because you have a bias towards NASCAR just like I openly admit my bias for Formula One.

I think RainMan is a hell of a race fan, and I look foward to having him here. I certainly don't see anything lacking in his arguements as you do. The fact that you can take something negative out of the above exchange, tells me a lot.

Sorry to say that...but it's true.

[RainMan]

Hi Guys, it's me RainMan. From what I've been reading, this board is definitely more mature and civil than the Irace board. I just went there today, and all people keep posting is the same old stereotypes about NASCAR hicks. They never provide any support for their arguments against NASCAR, and I can only respect someone who gives you some logical reasons, as does F1 Razor. I'll enjoy posting with you guys, and if you have any NASCAR questions or anything, I would be happy to answer them, as I may occasionally have F1 questions. Also, I do on occasion watch sports-car racing and enjoy it very much, although not to the same degree as NASCAR.

[Rich]

Welcome Rainman and consider yourself, er, 'not recruited' - whatever that means (Rich shoots a quizzical glance at F1Razor)

I hope you'll enjoy the level of debate here, and that you become a regular.

[Pit Babe]

Welcome, RainMan!

F1r - I never told anyone on iRACE who I cheer for, either, so how has anything changed?

[RainMan]

Thanks for the welcome. I had an idea that might help each of us better understand why we love one another's type of racing without having to give the normal arguments. I thought it might be interesting and informative if each of us described some of our favorite races. That way, I could get a better appreciation of what goes on during and F1 race and you could get a better idea about NASCAR racing. It might be fun, so let me know what you think.

[F1razor]

Hey man, welcome.

Rich, I mean, don't make him and admin right away!!

So what should we talk about?

[F1razor]

Pit Babe:

*going into a trance*

uh.....*concentrating*

I am getting mixed signals, either you are a Schumacher fan or, heaven forbid, a DC fan!!

[Fast One]

Razor--

My friend, you are as hard to figure as calculus problem for a man without pencil or calculator!!! Count me as puzzled as Rich. Welcome, Rainman, from the one guy who will concede you nothing about NASCAR. We debate hard around here, but except for rare moments when someone goes berzerk, it's usually polite. Just don't ask me to take it seriously. And Don, when will you see what I mean about Joe's "mission"? I thought we were letting this issue rest for awhile, and here it is again. Someone has a sadistic streak...

[RainMan]

Well, Fast One, I am not asking you to "conceed" me anything about NASCAR. I am not trying to debate for superiority, just equality in respect. You have mine, now I want yours, but I will be more than happy to be civil about it.

[RainMan]

If you don't mind, I would like to share with you the NASCAR race that got me hooked. Flash back to the 1995 Goody's 500 at the concrete, high-banked half-mile that is Bristol Motor Speedway. It is a hot August night and the race is delayed several hours for drying the track from a rain shower, but it turns out to be well worth the wait. The race gets underway, and Dale Earnhardt, known for not being a good qualifier, is slicing his way up through the field in his usual speedy fashion. On the way, he accidentally tags his good buddy Rusty Wallace from behind causing Rusty to spin. Rusty is left unhappy, as is NASCAR, who sends Earnardt to the back of the pack, which usually takes you out of serious contention on a tight short-track. However, using the style that earned him the nickname "The Intimidator", Earnhardt flies right back up through the pack, making no friends in the process, to take the lead for a while. The race then settles for a time. Towards the end, Terry Labonte, called "The Iceman" for his cool demeanor has taken the lead and has opened up somewhat of a comfortable margin over Earnhardt, but no gap is comfortable enough at Bristol. As the laps wind to a close, Earnhardt begins to close as Labonte catches lap traffic. With 2 laps to go, Earnhardt is only a straightaway back, and closes within a few car-lengths as the white-flag waves. As Labonte enters the final turn on the final lap, he gets caught behind 2 lap cars, and Earnhardt, making one last-ditch effort, gives Labonte a "love-tap". Off the turn, Labonte's back-end wiggles back and forth, and finally kicks out. His car noses into the outside retaining wall, but slides across the finish-line first. He drives it to victory lane where it smokes and spills coolant as He and his crew celebrate a wacky victory. And that is what got me hooked on NASCAR.

[Fast One]

Rainman--

Not to worry. You will be well received by me and everyone. Just because we like to debate doesn't mean we don't all like each other. Joe Fan and I go at it hammers and tongs on occasion, but when I finally meet him, I'll greet him like a long lost brother. One thing you can count on: we never reach the point where gunfire is exchanged...Again, welcome. I'll look forward to getting to know you.

[RainMan]

Fast One--

I understand what you mean. I don't hold grudges against people who debate fairly, whether I agree with their views or not. I consider it to be all in fun.

To everyone--

Please let me know what you think of my post above about the Goody's 500, and also if you would enjoy some more stories about great NASCAR races, because I have plenty. I would greatly appreciate hearing some of your F1 stories because it is hard to understand a form of racing that you only watch occasionally. Thank you for your time.

[Statesidefan]

Hi Rain Man,

Welcome to the best BB on the net. I'm sure we'll be exchanging some barbs in the future.

I have a rep as a NASCAR hater here, but it really more for fun than anything. I do find ovals monotnous, even in CART. I will say that one of the best overtaking moves I ever saw was Gordons pass of Earnhardt at Daytona in 98(??)or 97. My main beef with NASCAR is the hype and sensationalism that has become almost omnipresent.

I love watching them herd around a road course as much as anything and wish they would add a few more of those races to the schedule.

If you want to see what F-1 is really all about then just find a tape of Nigel Mansell , Gilles Villenuve, Ronnie Peterson, Jim Clark or Ayrton Senna to name a few.

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"The strategy of a Formula One race is very simple. It's flat out from the minute the flag drops." Mario Andretti 1976

[Keith Steele]

Hey RainMan, welcome to Atlas. I am a recovering Nascarohaulic. I never missed a race from the mid eithies to the early nineties. The reason I left, was relatively simple. I got tired of seeing the non existant debris cautions that would come out when someone was dominating a race, and too I hate the fact that guys like Earnhardt tap guys like Labonte to try and win. I think the sportsmanship is hardly something for kids to look up to. I really hate the phrase Rubbin is racing. To me it isnt. Its demolition derby. Like I said I still watch a few races if there isnt a Cart race or F1 race on that weekend, but I just lost interest. I do have a question for you though considering Nascar's future. Sponsors love Nascar, but it seems lately the younger drivers arent getting the time they need to develop into top notch racers. If you look at Dale Jarret, there was a time where I didnt think he was worthy of the Wood Bros. ride in the late eighties. Today, he is a champion because he was allowed the time to figure it out. Nowadays, there is so much pressure to produce, it isnt rare to see a team with two or three drivers through the course of a season, kinda like musical chairs. Guys like Jeff Gordon and now Tony Stewart make it very difficult for the other new guys who dont have the talent/confidence to compete for wins. Will Nascar implode because of this or do you not see this as a problem. Unfortunately it isnt like these guys can hone thier skills in BGN because so many of the Winston Cup guys now run both series. I guess I just dont see Nascar's stock rising much higher. One small note AMT's Stock car model kits(their bread & butter) are down in sales in a big way. Will this find its way to the 1/1 scale cars? Probably not, but it is interesting. Again I have no problem with the drivers, Michael Waltrip is one of the funniest dudes Ive ever listened to. Most of the guys are really good and talented guys. But as you may have guessed I detest Dale "the instigator" Earnhart. When he tapped Labonte (this year)and this time wrecked him to take the win I just couldnt believe what I saw. As many in the stands booed, it did make me feel better about the general Nascar fan who likes, like any true race fan, to see good CLEAN racing.

[Ray Bell]

Going back to fundamentals - when they turned the NASCAR crowd loose in a 500-miler at Riverside, it was an F1 driver who won year after year. Dan Gurney, in fact. Recently I was looking at an old report on one of these races and realised how little we recognised (from the distance of Australia) what winning one of these races might have taken.
Now we have a race like this, only perhaps a little more so because of the toughness of the Bathurst course (and it's 125 miles further!), and we've been doing it with 5-liter to 5.7-liter V8 tin tops for about twenty six years. Now, that is a race, but very different to a Grand Prix.

[RainMan]

To Keith--

Although I wish younger drivers did have more time to develop without so much pressure, I realy don't see this a being a terminal cancer on the sport because I believe that when the problem becomes serious, NASCAR will fix it. I could be wrong, but I think they will. As for your hatred of Earnhardt, things like you described are what appeal to me because they show that he is human, and doesn't always do the right thing. Today, NASCAR is overrun with cookie-cutter drivers who won't do anything without somebody else's approval, and you never really get to know those drivers. As for both Bristol incidents, Bristol just lends itself to bumping and grinding, and it is not always Earnhardt doing it. I can enjoy close racing without touching too, but the nature of a shorttrack involves some rubbing. I can appreciate a clean driver as well as Mark Martin is my favorite, of course Mark is also quick to show his real emotions which is why he appeals to me. Rubbing might not be racing in F1, but in NASCAR it is a part of it because it was there from the very beginnning. Today's bumping is nothing like it used to be. I do recall, however, a couple years back when the heralded Michael Schumaker ran into the side of Villeneuve o eliminate his championship chances, only to take himself out instead. Anyways, you don't have to approve of it, but you must accept it as a part of racing, at least in my world.

To Ray Bell--

I have to argue that back in the days when Riverside first opened, stock cars and F1 cars were much closer in driving style than is the case today. Back then, F1 cars required quite a bit of manhandling, as did the Cup cars, which would explain why Gurney outright dominated Riverside, not to mention the fact that road racing of that sort was totally new to most NASCAR drivers. I do not profess that stock cars require as much manhandling today as they did back then either, but they require quite a bit ore than F1 cars. Today, F1 cars drive nothing like NASCAR cars and an F1 driver would not be able to come over and win like Gurney did, just as no NASCAR driver would be able to go to F1 and win. It would take any driver crossing over some time to adapt. However, I think that a winner is a winner no matter what he or she drives, because being a winner involves the desire to win much more than it does the physical ability. Schumaker wins races with lesser equipiment because he wants so badly to do so, just as Earnhardt has done for years. drivers like that can pull off wins in cars that noone else would win with on a given day. Thus, I feel that it is more in the driver than it is in what type of car he is driving.

[Keith Steele]

RainMan dont tell anybody but I detest Michael Schumacher as well. I just think that most if not all of the guys running Nascar have the talent to make a clean pass without shoving your way through. If I guy hits a guy because a car ahead of the car that is in front of him checks up, what can you do? Was it Matt Kenseth who pushed his way through at Milwukee this year in the Bgn race? Using your car as a battering ram the way Dale Earnhardt did to Al Unser Jr. in the Iroc race a few years ago, just tells me that that is his style. Ive seen him race so I know he's capable of more, this is what upsets me about Schumacher. All that talent, but still feeling the need to resort to my definition of cheap racing. Thats just how I feel. I certainly can respect that that is what some fans like, doesnt mean I hafta like it though.

[RainMan]

Hi Keith, obviously bumping and grinding is not your bag, but in NASCAR if you don't make any contact at all, your going to get walked all over. Mark Martin, perhaps the cleanest successful driver in NASCAr summed it up the best way I ever saw. He said that some drivers can bump a guy out of the way and not feel bad about it, and he has no problem with that. He just says that if he did that, he would feel bad about it, so he's not going to do it. Believe me when I say that the horroe stories about NASCAR being nothing but a bunch of guys beating the heck out of each other is greatly overblown. Heavy contact does take place at short-tracks regularly because they are so tight, and the cars are so heavy, and if you did not get a guy out of shape, noone would ever be able to pass anybody. It would simply be impossible to move forward in a pack of 43 cars at a one-groove track. That kind of stuff does not happen at speedways very often, at least not on purpose. And even thoug Earnhardt has that reputation of hitting people anywhere, he actually got that reputation from short-tracks, not speedways. I have seen the IROC race you spoke of where Unser got flipped, but it looked to me like Unser came up to block Earnhardt, which would not have been a problem except that Mark martin was drafting right on Earnhardt's tail. That is how the draft works with stock cars in the respect that a lot of what you do depends on the people around you. I also recall Dale saying that that win was no fun since somebody wrecked. However, his willingness to give "love-taps" over the years has allowed him to win in lesser equipment than his competitors. I guarantee that he would much rather win cleanly, as he did do twice this year. I adamantly believe what he said about Bristol this year that he did not mean to spin Terry Labonte, he only meant to get him out of shape. The tape clearly shows that what really caused Terry to spin was that he was impatient and drove into that turn way to hard and had the wheel cranked very hard to the left to correct it, making the car extremely light in the back-end. You could have spun that car out by touching it with your finger if you had the chance. So, in conclusion, I believe that bumping and grinding comes more out of necessity in NASCAR due to the natur of how the cars drive, and the sort of tracks they run. I agree that it woul have no place in open-wheel racing, for it presents to much of a danger at those speeds and with the lttle amount of protection thos drivers have in their cars. As I said before though, you certainly do not have to approve of rubbing, but must realize that it is a part of racing.

P.S. It was Casey Atwood, not Matt Kenseth, who bumped Jeff Green out of the way at Milwuakee this year. In fact, it was for his very first victoy at I believe only age 18. Matt, although normally a very clean racer, like his mentor Mark Martin, also tapped Tony Stewart out of the way for his first victory at Rockingham in the Spring of 98.

[Keith Steele]

Heh Rainman think me no fool as I said I followed stock car racing for a few decades so I'm well aware of what is involved. I occasionally throw "days of thunder" in to the vcr for a good laugh, especailly when a guy runs against the wall for 100 feet and four seconds later is still battling for the lead. I will never dispute how hard it is to muscle one of those cars around for three and a half hours at 180 mph. I know I dont have what it takes. For that they, even DaLe Earnhardt, have my respect.

But...

I would have you take annother look at that Iroc race which was on a superspeedway for the record. Unser may have come up on him, but I question the sanity not to mention morality of a guy who has consistantly taken people out like that. He had blocked Unser the exact same way a few laps prior and Unser backed off. Unser justifiably, couldnt <add explitive> believe he was pushed into the wall and wrecked in such a way.
I think Terry Labonte summed it up perfectly that night when he said with all of the composure he could possibly muster. "He (DE)never _means_ to do it."

So you really understand where I am coming from I am a huge Cart fan whose missed attending two Indy 500's in 23 years. I keep watching F1 in hopes that it returns to where it was in the early to mid nineties. It's current formula breeds much more action off the track than it does on. I never liked Senna for the same reasons I dislike Schumacher. Prost I liked at one time but also lost his magic in my eyes. I guess what I am trying to say is, racing should be a gentlemans game considering the danger ever present. Just because one guy robs a bank with a gun to me anyway doesnt make it acceptable for the next guy to. Martin, is a man of exceptional character even if his owner believes tires are being soaked and redefines whining at times. I have to say I would thoroughly enjoy watching Earnhardt drive a formula ford series for a season where if he attempted to do a little bumpin, either his car or the other would start cartwheeling. Not beacuse I enjoy a good wreck but because I would like to see him drive with his head instead of his testosterone. I realize that wouldnt be his forte, but one can dream. Prost and Senna I believe created in part the monster of Schumacher. They set the standard and because of their obvious talents it was somehow seen as acceptable, at least to a young Michael Schumacher. I see the same thing happening with Earnhardt. He is a seven time champion so whatever he does must be ok, right? From where I stand it just isnt. Do I not watch Nascar because of him? Absolutely not, I have been catching up on the races during the offseason. Is Nascar stained somewhat by the "incinerator's" presence in the sport? To me yes. Earnhardt's "mistakes" give all the pompous, clueless people who know nothing about Nascar something to compare it to, which is the WWF. Hardly a fair label, but then again so many times Earnhardt hasnt displayed fair tactics. So one must sleep in the bed they have made.

[RainMan]

Well, we are exhibiting a classic race fan trait of interpreting the IROC incident differently. There's nothing wrong with a difference of opinion. However, my point is that at short tracks, you must be somewhat physical to go anywhere. Even mark is forced to lay a fender on you at tracks like that. I do not agree with everything that Earnhardt has ever done, but for the most part, his evil deeds were done during the 80's and the things that have happened at Bristol have been short-track racing. Bear in mind that this year's Bristol incident occured after Terry Labonte roughed Earnhardt up pretty good trying to get by. I also must say that with a few exceptions, NASCAR has readily penalized Earnhardt for incidents over the years, as to send a message about their tolerance level. I belive that the WWF image comes more from a few stupid fans actions than what actually goes on on the track. I have a feeling that we could debate this "rubbing is racing" issue till we are blue in the face and would never agree, so maybe we should agree to disagree on it. Afterall, it is just a preference thing anyhow. There are plenty of NASCAR fans who don't approve of rubbing, and even I don't approve of it anywhere but short-tracks, but it is not going away, at least not until NASACR manages to get the field filled with all of its cookie-cutter drivers.

[Keith Steele]

fair enough