57 replies to this topic

[Joe Fan]

I am attempting to create my own list of the century's top 100 greatest drivers from all the motorsports world (ie. not just grand prix racing like in Motorsport magazine's list). I will post just a portion of them for now as it takes much thought in developing such a list. I will update it until I have reached 100 so please be patient as I may have forgotten someone or I am still in the process of deciding if someone is worthy.

In alphabetical order:

Bobby Allison (NASCAR)
Davey Allison (NASCAR)
Joe Amato (NHRA drag racing)
Mario Andretti (IndyCar-CART/F1/SC etc.)
Michael Andretti (CART)
Alberto Ascari (F1)
Buck Baker (NASCAR)
Buddy Baker (NASCAR)
Tony Bettenhausen Sr.(IndyCar)
Georges Boillot (GP racing)
Jack Brabham (F1)
Jimmy Bryan (IndyCar)
Sir Malcolm Campbell (Land Speed)
Rudolf Caracciola (GP racing)
Louis Chiron (GP racing)
Jim Clark (F1)
Ralph DePalma (IndyCar)
Mark Donohue (Sports Cars/IndyCar/F1)
Dale Earnhardt Sr. (NASCAR)
Bill Elliott (NASCAR)
Juan Manuel Fangio (F1)
Guiseppe Farina (F1)
Emerson Fittipaldi (F1/CART)
Tim Flock (NASCAR)
John Force (NHRA drag racing)
A.J. Foyt (IndyCar-CART/NASCAR/Sports Cars)
Don Garlits (NHRA drag racing)
Jeff Gordon (NASCAR)
Jules Goux (GP racing/IndyCar)
Masten Gregory (Sports Cars/F1)
Dan Gurney (Sports Cars/F1/IndyCar)
Mike Hailwood (GP motorcycle racing/F1)
Mika Hakkinen (F1)
Mike Hawthorn (F1/Sports Cars)
Damon Hill (F1)
Graham Hill (F1)
Phil Hill (F1/Sports Cars)
Denny Hulme (F1/Sports Cars)
Jacky Ickx (Sports cars/F1)
Bobby Isaac (NASCAR/Land Speed)
Dale Jarrett (NASCAR)
Ned Jarrett (NASCAR)
Alan Jones (F1)
Parnelli Jones (IndyCar/Sports Cars)
Juha Kankkunen (World Rally)
Steve Kinser (World of Outlaws Sprint Cars)
Evel Knievel (Motorcycle daredevil)
Terry Labonte (NASCAR)
Niki Lauda (F1)
Frank Lockhart (IndyCar)
Fred Lorenzen (NASCAR)
Tommi Makinen (World Rally)
Nigel Mansell (F1/IndyCar)
Rex Mays (IndyCar)
Mark Martin (NASCAR)
Jeremy McGrath (AMA)
Bruce McLaren (F1/Sports Cars)
Rick Mears (IndyCar-CART)
Louis Meyer (IndyCar)
Tommy Milton (IndyCar)
Stirling Moss (F1/Sports Cars)
Jimmy Murphy (IndyCar)
Felice Nazzaro (GP racing)
Tazio Nuvolari (GP racing)
Barney Oldfield (Land Speed/IndyCar)
David Pearson (NASCAR)
Ronnie Peterson (F1)
Lee Petty (NASCAR)
Richard Petty (NASCAR)
Nelson Piquet (F1)
Alain Prost (F1)
Don Prudhomme (NHRA drag racing)
Bobby Rahal (CART)
Jochen Rindt (F1)
Fireball Roberts (NASCAR)
Kenny Roberts Sr (AMA)
Keke Rosberg (F1)
Bernd Rosemeyer (GP racing)
Johnny Rutherford (IndyCar)
Carlos Sainz (World Rally)
Michael Schumacher (F1)
Ayrton Senna (F1)
Wilbur Shaw (IndyCar)
Ivan Stewart (Off Road racing)
Jackie Stewart (F1)
John Surtees (F1/Sports Cars)
Herb Thomas (NASCAR)
Curtis Turner (NASCAR)
Al Unser Sr.(IndyCar-CART)
Al Unser Jr. (CART)
Bobby Unser (IndyCar)
Achille Varzi (GP racing)
Gilles Villeneuve (F1)
Jacques Villeneuve (F1)
Rusty Wallace (NASCAR)
Darrell Waltrip (NASCAR)
Rodger Ward (IndyCar)
Joe Weatherly (NASCAR)
Jean-Pierre Wimille (GP racing)
Cale Yarborough (NASCAR)

[Xaxor]

You're embarking on a thankless task, JF. Since you're talking all of motorsport, I would like to nominate some WRC drivers:

Hannu Mikkola
Stig Bolmqvist
Henri Toivonen
Walter Rohrl
Tommi Makinen
Carlos Sainz
Juha Kankkunen

[Don Capps]

Xaxor, don't forget Erik Carlsson or Vic Elford as rally drivers worthy of inclusion, plus several more if you think about it from earlier periods of rallying.

Joe, Lots of luck, you are a braver man than I'll ever be! So far, good choices!


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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

[Joe Fan]

Xaxor, World Rally has never been one of my areas of expertise. I was thinking of a few of the drivers on your list and I respect Rally drivers talents but I can't say that I would put many on the list. None of them really seem to stand out as being the best in their particular sport. Ivan Stewart is noted as being the best off-road racer in North America and he dominates it here but I am not sure if I should include him on the list or not (still thinking about it) because nobody really cares about this form of racing here. I have the same respect for World of Outlaw sprint car drivers but this is considered a lower formulae in the U.S. (although it is growing and very exciting) and I feel that in order to be included on the list you must dominate the lower series or verify your talent in a higher formulae like Steve Kinser did. In addition to Kinser winning 17-18 World of Outlaw championships, he also ran in the 1996 Indy 500 and did well running in the top ten until he got caught up in an accident.

World Rally just doesn't seem to be real popular even in Europe except for in Finland. Does World Rally provide purses and sponsorship that attracts and retains top driving talent?

In a similar sense, I am considering Richie Evans who is considered the greatest Modified driver ever but this is considered a lower formulae in the U.S.

[Fast One]

Joe--

I would say you have to limit your choices to guys who succeeded at the highest level of their particular discipline. That means guys who were dominant in lower formulae should be excluded unless they moved up and became a force in a higher series.

Your list is pretty interesting, although I don' think running in the top ten in an IRL Indy 500 exactly establishes Steve Kinser's greatness. WOO is a pretty low-level formula, even among oval racers.

Great rally drivers should by all means be included. I am of the opinion that they are truly the best all-round drivers on earth, even though my interest lies with open wheelers and sports cars. And believe me, in Europe, rally driving is big stuff, third only to F1 and Le Mans.

We know we'll disagree about the inclusion of oval racers and drag racers, but that's okay. I still find your choices interesting. If your list is truly a motorsports top 100, don't forget the great bikers. Also, I'd pay a little more attention to prewar guys: they are often overlooked.

[Joe Fan]

Fast One, did you see that I included Kenny Roberts? I am sorry but if you are going to suggest that World of Outlaws is a lower formulae then I would have to say that any bike series is probably considered the same. Quite a few bikers had to move up to higher forms of motorsport to gain fame. Steve Kinser is far more recognizable motosports figure than Kenny Roberts or Jeremy McGrath and his IndyCar performance was impressive since it was his first race in that type of car. Kinser also raced in a few NASCAR races but didn't fare very well.

As far as including drag racers, if I had to rank them in order, they would be near the bottom of the list. Nonetheless, drag racing is a fairly major form of motorsport too that is participated in countries outside the U.S. like Japan and Australia (maybe a few more) and it is becoming more popular. I have been to several events and I believe that it does take some talent to drive a top fuel or funny car 310+mph but not as much as road or oval racing. The drivers I have included are recognized as being the best in their sport and have contributed much to the growth of their sport.

As far as the popularity of World Rally, I raised the question of who were the greatest rally drivers on the Rally section of Ten-tenths (a general motorsports forum based out of the UK) and I had to wait quite a while to get responses. The BTCC and NASCAR sections of this bulletin board get far more posts than the Rally section of that board. The Rally section seems dead even during the middle of the season. I have also asked Europeans how popular the sport is and from I have heard, Rally seems to take a big back seat to quite a few forms of motorsport in Europe except in Scandanavia where it is probably second behind F1.

At any rate, feel free to suggest some drivers that should be included. I may already have them in mind and might be considering them.

[Makarias]

Joe, since you've added NASCAR drivers to the list, I think you could add some rally drivers too. NASCAR is definitely less international than rallying, which apart from Finland is pretty popular in Sweden, France, UK and Italy too. If your knowledge about rallying is limited, I guess you'll have to trust your BB pals to give you the right names. I think the ones added are good, though Stig is Blomqvist, not Bolmqvist.
Slightly biased to the north as I am, I would also suggest Björn Waldegård and Markku Alen. Didier Auriol, Colin McRae and Ari Vatanen are other options.

I don't know much at all about RR, but shouldn't at least Mick Doohan be a worthy member of this list?

[Joe Fan]

Markarias, how long has the WRC been contested and organized? What do the average drivers make in the series? I can find books and information on quite a few types of motorsports but I have trouble finding anything but recent yearly review type books and videos. We have two motorsports hall of fames here in the U.S. but I don't think any World Rally drivers have ever been elected but quite a few F1 and Sport Car drivers have been as well as a few drag racers, bikers and land speed record holders. Even in my International Motorsports reference book printed and published in the UK, I don't see anything on World Rally or anything about World Rally drivers but they do have plenty of information on NASCAR, IndyCar-CART and any type of Sports car series all over the world. I am assuming that World Rally is viewed in Europe sort of like our World of Outlaws sprint car and off-road racing series (to a lesser extent).

[This message has been edited by Joe Fan (edited 11-29-1999).]

[Keith Steele]

Joe, I guess it depends on which list you want. If you want your list of the 100 best, go with what you know. If you're looking to culminate a list from the knowledge of this BB, go with two aspirin. One can only go by what he knows. Age, location and general personal knowledge are the only way I believe a list can be completed. If you had every member of this BB undertake what you are doing, the lists would vary greatly. I personally think Richard Petty is one of the greatest drivers ever. Not because he won Daytona or seven championships, but because he also knew how to muscle those Mopars around Riverside. I only know about Tazio Nuvolari from what I have read here. I havent read enough to put him as my number one. People often speak of Graham Hill driving too long. Perhaps he did, but what about Mario Andretti? I started really following Cart in about 81', to the point where I knew what the points were etc... From say 87' or 88' Mario to me was just a guy who caused accidents and had the audacity to blame the other person for them. So make your list, and I will appreciate the effort you put forth. I wouldnt dream of heckling you for your choices, because we all come from different backgrounds. So list on man. And if Jan Opperman, Mel Kenyon or Jim Hurtabise end up on your list, I'll just smile a knowing smile and read on.

[Pete Stanley]

I would consider adding:

Tony Brooks
Hurley Heywood
Clay Regazzoni
Tim Richmond (maybe)
Hans Stuck (both)
Rodger Ward

Surtees was a motorcylce rider of some note (GROSS understatement!), which you didn't include. But if I were you, I'd stick to four wheels on this survey.

Concerning the WRC: It seems to me that it is widely followed in Europe. When I pick up an Autosport, rallying is the only item that recieves as much attention as F1.

Lists like this are by their very nature controversial. It is too difficult to compare drivers from different eras. The only redeeming feature of such lists are that they generate conversation.

Another thought just struck me -- a list of the worst drivers! That would be fun.

[This message has been edited by Pete Stanley (edited 11-29-1999).]

[Fast One]

Pete--

In case you didn't notice, Surtees was also a driver of some note!

[Makarias]

Joe, I actually took me quite a while to find anything being mentioned about drivers salaries on the web, but eventually I found that British motor sports journalists had estimated Tommi Mäkinen's newly signed two year deal with Mitsubishi to be worth about £6 million, which I think sounds realistic. Mäkinen is one of the top drivers in the series, but from what I've heard the one with the best contract currently is Colin McRae. The relatively new regulations on how the teams are allowed to build their cars seems to be a great success, with several new teams joining the party with WRC cars for (part of) next year. This will probably lead to a yummy position for the top drivers when they are going to renew their deals.

Rallying is apart from F1 the only sport that has a FIA sanctioned world championship. The first official world champion was Björn Waldegård in 1979, but rallying has been popular in Europe much longer than that. I think that the sixties was sort of the breakthrough time for rallying, when the car became common property for most Europeans. See
http://www.rally-live.com/GB/

for a complete listing of official world champions. It has also a decent image bank, where you can see for yourself the variety of the different rallies.

I have no idea what those American series you mention are! Is WOO some sort of track racing?

[Joe Fan]

Thanks Makarias. I am still reserving at least one or two spots for the best Rally drivers. By the way, I already have three of the best "real" Rally drivers of all-time: NASCAR drivers Tim Flock, Curtis Turner and Junior Johnson. They were "moonshine runners" in the south and their job prior to their career in NASCAR stock car racing was to deliver "moonshine" from place to place while evading the police. There were no trophies for this type of rallying, just penalties such as jail time or possible loss of their life driving at speeds of 115mph on dirt and gravel roads at night trying to evade police.

Tim Flock deserves much credit for being the pioneer of stock car racing. He participated in the first race among "moonshine runners" held in a cow pasture 15 miles outside of Atlanta in the thirties. Crowds began to swell and eventually by the 1940's crowds of five thousand were not uncommon. This is how stock car racing in America began which eventually led to the great organization of it by Bill France Sr.-the founder of NASCAR.

[This message has been edited by Joe Fan (edited 11-30-1999).]

[Statesidefan]

Joe,

Here are some names to mull over:
Mike Hailwood
Hurley Haywood
Peter Gregg

Since this for ALL motorsport I think you need to consider more 2 wheel guys like...

Bob Hannah- fearless, fast and an iron man.

Stefan Everts- Perhaps the fastest outdoor rider EVER.

Jeremy McGrath- The fastest indoor guy and pretty damn quick outdoors.

Mike Hailwood- Ever seen the Isle of Man???

Some Italian guy with a funny name... Rode MV Agustas. What was his name???

No criticism here though. You have a daunting task ahead. Don't foget about the motocrossers!!!!

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"The strategy of a Formula One race is very simple. It's flat out from the minute the flag drops." Mario Andretti 1976


[This message has been edited by Statesidefan (edited 11-30-1999).]

[Statesidefan]

Forgot.....Fred Lorenzen

[Joe Fan]

Yeah, Fred Lorenzen was a great driver too. It is getting harder to come up with the last 29 drivers and I want to be sure that I am representing the 1900-1949 era enough. I can't say that there should be anything close to an even amount of drivers from the first fifty years to the last fifty because many of the early cars really weren't that fast and many would be considered junior forumla cars today due to their low horsepower production. Nonetheless, they were dangerous and these drivers shouldn't be penalized. The growth of motorsports really began after the second world war and the speeds of the cars began to climb to impressive numbers in the 1930's thanks to Mercedes-Benz/Auto Union. Quite a few of the names people have mentioned I have already thought about and some others nobody has. The first 50-60 drivers were real easy to come up with but it is getting tougher.

[This message has been edited by Joe Fan (edited 11-30-1999).]

[John B]

Interesting topic. A few thoughts (from an obviously American viewpoint...)

He's relatively new, but how about Tony Stewart? Based not only on the Winston Cup success this year, but also the open wheel IRL title and success in lower levels.

Al Holbert was another name that came to mind from the sports car ranks.

The ESPN-famous Dick Trickle might be a good representative of U.S. lower-level circuits, such as ASA etc.

The international rally stars have been already mentioned; a U.S. rally driver could be Paul Choinere or John Buffum.

I was really impressed with what Alan Kulwicki did during his too-brief NASCAR career. Like Gilles Villeneuve, stats mean little in his story.

[Joe Fan]

John B, Tony Stewart will make the greatest 100 drivers of the 21st century. I think he hasn't accomplished enough in this century to be included. As far as Kulwicki, I agree that he was a great driver and I have considered him but I don't want to let my biases affect my decision making too much. Davey Allison and Joe Weatherly are other NASCAR drivers that were killed before the careers could mature that were also great drivers. This is a tough task.

[Joe Fan]

Don and Dennis (or anyone else), have any comments? I have just 11 spots remaining with about 30 drivers from various forms of motorsport in consideration. Perhaps someone can step up and provide me with a strong argument for why a certain driver should be on the list as I probably have them in mind but still have some reservations. I need more non-American drivers on the list and I have quite a few in mind from Formula One, World Sports Car racing and early Grand Prix racing but it is getting harder to differentiate a group of drivers especially when some drove in the same era and had similar accomplishments.

I am considering the following non-American drivers: Jules Goux, Mike Hawthorn, Keke Rosberg, Giuseppe Farina, Herman Muller, Herman Lang, Luigi Villoresi, Robert Benoist, Carlo Felice Trossi, Tony Brooks, Frolian Gonzalez, Peitro Bordino, Bruce McLaren (great sports car driver), Derek Bell, Jochen Mass, Pedro Rodriguez, etc.

[Don Capps]

Oh, Lang definitely!!! It was just a fluke that he wasn't the real 1939 Euro Champ (& a to DD)!

Of your list I would consider:
Jules Goux, Keke Rosberg, Giuseppe Farina, Robert Benoist, Tony Brooks, Frolian Gonzalez, Pietro Bordino, Bruce McLaren

and

David Bruce-Brown (early GP, winner USGP - as in Grand Prize), Joe Weatherly (his 1963 Championship effort alone should put him on the list), Alan Kulwicki (along with Weatherly in 1963, Keke Rosberg & John Surtees one of the best come from behind efforts), Wendell Scott & Phil Walters (AKA Ted Tappett - midgets & sports cars, D. Gurney's hero)



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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps




[This message has been edited by Don Capps (edited 12-02-1999).]

[Joe Fan]

Don, I am still considering Joe Weatherly and I am pretty sure that I will add him and Fred Lorenzen. Believe it or not, Wendell Scott entered by mind because of him breaking the color barrier. David Bruce-Brown is someone that I have considered as well but I kind of think that he was killed too early. Ditto for Alan Kulwicki who had just 5 Winston Cup wins.

In addition to the above, I am considering the following American drivers: Gordon Johncock, Tom Sneva, Earl Cooper, Ted Horn, Joe Leonard, Bobby Rahal, Buddy Baker (first to eclipse the 200mph barrier on an enclosed course and a very underrated driver), Ricky Rudd, Tim Richmond, Al Holbert, and few other sports car drivers etc.

P.S. What do you think about me including Evel Kninevel? I included him because I think he had a huge impact on the motorsports world in the 70's even though he wasn't acutally a racer. He still can be considered a driver and even people who know nothing about motorsports all know who he is.

[This message has been edited by Joe Fan (edited 12-02-1999).]

[Dr.DeDion]

I would certainly include rally drivers from the 1960's to the present before I'd consider anyone from drag racing or NASCAR.Carlos Sainz certainly,Kankkunen,Makinen(father and son),Mikkola,Henri Toivonen,Rorhl and no one has mentioned the best rally driver of the 1970s, Sandro Munari.There are others too but I haven't thought about it enough to pare them down to the 10 or so rallyists who should be on the list with the greats from F1 and sports cars.

Another category to consider is drivers who excelled at over-the-road events of the Mille Miglia/Targa/Carrera type.Their skills were more similar to a rally driver's skills than an F1 racer.Surely Biondetti, Maglioli and others who would not make the list on their circuit racing alone deserve recognition for their extraordinary judgement and reflexes in "real" road racing.

As for the popularity of rallying, Britain's RAC Rally has more spectators than any sporting event in the world.In 1985 it was estimated that nearly 3 million saw or tried to see parts of it.It attracts big crowds in Spain, Portugal, Italy, France, Argentina, Australia and NZ as well.

An American sprint car driver that no one has mentioned yet is Troy Ruttman.I'm not sure I'd include him on my top 100, but of all the Americans who drove in the Carrera Panamericana he is the one who most impressed the Europeans with sheer bravery and driving style.

[This message has been edited by Dr.DeDion (edited 12-05-1999).]

[Joe Fan]

Dr.DeDion, the only problem I have with including a bunch of Rally drivers is that the top talent eventually migrate to higher series. This is the case in the U.S. as well as around the world. Ivan Stewart is unquestionably America's best Rally type driver and very few people have heard of him here. CART driver Robby Gordon was the 1986, 1987 and 1990 SCORE/HDRA off-road champion, the 1996 Score Trophy Truck champion and he struggled in NASCAR in 1997 (finished 40th in the season points), failed to qualify for quite a few races and eventually left the series to return to CART. He is now returning to NASCAR next season because 20th place pays much better in NASCAR than it does in CART. Rally racing even though I appreciate the talent involved doesn't seem to attract the top driving talent. In the U.S., NASCAR followed by CART attracts the top American talent and outside of the U.S., it is Formula One followed by Sport Car or Touring Car racing. However, I do not dismiss the fact that World Rally attracts a few top notch drivers because every major series has at least one star driver who could move up to a higher series but can make more being a star in their own series. I kind of view World Rally the same way I view our World of Outlaws Sprint Car series. It takes a lot of talent and it is popular here but the top drivers eventually try a higher series.

NASCAR driver Curtis Turner is in my opinion the greatest driver on dirt ever and a "real" rally driver as a moonshine runner in the 1930's and 1940's. He was so good that he never got caught by the police therefore has no police record. He is universally known as the master of the dirt track power slide which he obviously learned from his experience from driving many of his moonshine sortie runs on the gravel and dirt roads in the South. You can read about him by clicking here: www.historyonwheels.com/halloffame/1992/Curtis_Turner_main.htm

As far as Troy Ruttman, I agree he was a talent driver whose career would have been something special had it not been cut short and he did enter my mind. But I think he didn't accomplish enough before he was killed to warrant inclusion on my list.


[This message has been edited by Joe Fan (edited 12-05-1999).]

[Keith Steele]

Joe, not to make this any harder than it already is, but if you don't include drivers like Kulwicki who only had 5 wins, wouldnt you too then have to exclude Gille V. for his mere 6 wins? I know I said I'd shutup, but felt the need to throw that out there.

[Joe Fan]

Keith, what Alan Kulwicki did as a single car owner in NASCAR was impressive but comparing Kulwicki's 5 NASCAR WC wins (compared with the modern era NASCAR win total by Darrell Waltip which was 84 wins) to GV's 6 GP wins (with Prost's 51 win total) led me to include Gilles. I am not saying that Kulwicki wasn't a great driver but I don't think he lived long enough to firmly place himself in the top 100. I still have room to add him and I am still thinking about it. The same can be said for David Bruce-Brown who is arguably America's first great driver. And perhaps if Greg Moore lived a few more years he would established himself more to be included as a representative from the CART series. That is if there were a few more years life in the century. Moore probably would have made the greatest drivers of the century for the 21st century.

[This message has been edited by Joe Fan (edited 12-05-1999).]

[Xaxor]

JF, it's your list and you can choose whomever you want. It is clear to me however that you really have no concept on what World Rally is about. WRC is not some "off-road" contest with guys doing powerslides in the dirt. To group WRC with moonshiner legends takes away any credibility that your list may have.

I don't want to ponticifate about how glorious WRC is. But, I think you should check it out if you want your list to have some meaning. You just may find that you'll change your mind. You can start by watching Speedvision WRC specials on Sunday afternoons. Also, maybe your local library has a copy of Rallycourse.

[Joe Fan]

Xaxor, I am quite aware of what World Rally is all about. I don't get to see live World Rally events here on my cable TV but it does not mean that I don't understand what it is about or that I haven't seen a few of these drivers in action on highlight tapes. I also have a World Rally Sony Playstation game so I understand what stages mean and how one bad stage can affect your event placing.

As far as losing credibility by including moonshine runners on my list, I think that is a typical response for those who have no appreciation for the skills of those drivers. You can pooh pooh these drivers as dumb outlaws but it doesn't mean that they couldn't drive a car with the best of them on any type of surface. I certainly don't let my intellect stand in the way of recognizing drivers who were skilled that weren't the most educated, law abiding lot. Trust me on this one. Curtis Turner would have been a dominating World Rally driver. Turner mastered the dirt track power slide from his vast experience running moonshine sorties on dirt and gravel roads at speeds of 115mph at night.

[This message has been edited by Joe Fan (edited 12-05-1999).]

[cjs f1]

Don't forget...

Peter Revson-
winner of 2 G.P.s and the 1971 Can-Am championship.

But even better...

Brian Redman-
winner of numerous sportscar races and dominated the U.S. F5000 championship between 1974-1976.

[Makarias]

Joe, "...the only problem I have with including a bunch of Rally drivers is that the top talent eventually migrate to higher series." The WRC IS the highest series of rallying. F1, Cart and NASCAR are not to be considered as higher series from a rally drivers point of view. You don't expect a ski jumper to "move up" to downhill, or a highjumper to go to pole vault would you?

[F1razor]

Too NASCAR centric.

Is Jeff Gordon on that list? If not, why?

There are some obvious NASCAR drivers like Lee and Richard Petty, Allison, and a few others I can think of...but, the amount of drivers you have on there from that series taints your lists objectivity, in my opinion.

But hey...it's just a list.

[jc_nl]

If you are making a top 100 of all motorsports including rallydrivers you should put Maus Gatsonides in. He was a dutch rally-driver He has won the monte carlo rally and a lot of rally's and races. He was considerd to be one of the best by the drivers racing against him. He also was a very creative person who build his own cars, the kwik beeing the most famous example. The reason a lot of people in Holland know him is that he invented a system to record the speed of his car(the gatsometer). The police used that system for speed traps. This shows he was an allround technician who deserves some honor.

[RainMan]

I like your method of listing the drivers in alphabetical order rather than by number. Since there is never a way to account for differences in equipment, competition, and series, I think that it si impossible to actually rank drivers with a number value. Listing the top-100 and leavig it at that is the best way I see to do it.

[Joe Fan]

Markarias and jc_nl, I admit that my knowledge of World Rally is rather limited but I still don't think World Rally attracts top driving talent (don't take that too personal) and I feel that Rally is an underappreciated motorsport even in the UK. I have a lot of respect for their talents but I also have the same respect for World of Outlaws Sprint Car drivers here as well but despite racing in series like these that require great skills and arguably better, top racing talent usually move on to higher level motorsports series. I have an International Motorsports Guide printed in the UK and there is nothing about World Rally or its drivers but it lists information on F1, early Grand Prix racing, World Sports Car, IndyCar/CART, NASCAR and various other sports car series and each series top drivers. I think everyone would agree that F1 attracts the top European talent as well as some top talent outside of Europe but when F1 drivers move on to other series it is usually to Sports Cars, CART or even Touring Cars. Has World Rally attracted any former decent F1 drivers? With the exception of Vic Elford, has any Rally drivers moved up to or raced F1 or CART? It seems to me that F1 and Sports Cars are the top two motorsports series in Europe so that is where most of my emphasis has been placed in adding the greatest drivers who raced on the other side of the Atlantic. Does either of you have information on who hold the record for most WRC wins all-time? And prior to 1979, did they crown champions? If they did who has the most championships and wins from the inception of Rally? If someone can give me this information, I might be inclined to add more Rally drivers.

RainMan, I have a personal top ten but I am somewhat reluctant to reveal it here as I might get seriously criticized by the open wheel crowd. It would be impossible to rank all of these drivers in order from many different disciplines and eras.

[Fast One]

Joe--

Trust me, rallying is its own end, just like oval racing. Some guys move "up" (in my view)to road racing, but very few from ovals, and even fewer from rallying. There used to be more guys who did both road racing and rallying: Stirling Moss comes to mind, and I think Tommy Wisdom did both (Denis or Don?). I am not a big rally fan; I actually only follow it slightly, but I have seen those guys drive, and I personally think they are even better and more versitile than road racers, even Formula 1. It is the hardest driving I have ever seen anywhere. It doesn't translate well to other forms of racing, just like oval racing really doesn't, but I think it is more difficult than any other form of driving. Watch the admittedly limited coverage on Speedvision and I think you will see it, too. As a show, it sucks, because the cars don't race side-by-side, but it requires the broadest (by far) range of driving skills to be great.

So I think you owe it to your list to consider them, even if it means heaving a few of the excess Americans into the weeds. I know you're an oval guy, Joe, but trust me: the great rally drivers are as great as anyone.

Good to see you back.

[jc_nl]

The problem with these best ever lists is that you can only put in the people that you know. I for example would put in rally drivers(I saw Makkinen at Zandvoort this year, his show was much better that Salo in a Ferrari). But I would never put in driver from the World of Outlaws, because I have never heard of them. I personaly think it is impossible to make a top 100 of all time and all types of motorsport.

Since I dont know them, what is/was the World of Outlaws ??

[RainMan]

Good point jc_nl. You are right that everybody is biased towards their form of racing because it is what they know. As for the World of Outlaws, I can fill you in on a few details. These guys are nuts, but they are incredible drivers. The drive winged sprint cars that have 800hp with direct drive drive-train, meaning the power is either on or off, no in between. They run over 100 events a year, with several heat races at each event. TNN shows them quite often and they are worth taking a peek at, if only to watch a short dash.

[Keith Steele]

http://goracing.com/...9/new_47-11.jpg

There is a picture of perhaps the best WoO driver in this shot. Steve Kinser in the green Quaker State car. They are really enjoyable to watch. The drivers throw the back end of the car into a controlled slide entering the turns. The driver then saws at the wheel to maintain the slide through the turn while attempting to pass and keep their speed up. A few years ago I had the opportunity to watch one of the low rung series called UMARA. Many of these guys were 17 and 18 and hadnt figured out how to do the "slide". Then we saw this one kid just running amazing laps, but couldnt hear who it was because of the engine noise. We found out who it was after he'd won the feature race. It was a young and talented Page Jones, son of Parnelli. Seeing these kids made me realize just how hard it is to drive these cars. While I agree that Rally is the top rung for its sport. So too is World Of Outlaws. Was it Colin Mcrae who either turned down an F1 test or said he'd do it but had no interest in racing F1. He reached the peak in his field. Same true with Steve Kinser. He went on to drive Stock Cars and IRL cars and wasnt extremely successful but that certainly doesnt discredit what a great driver he is in his field. So again you go with what you know on these lists. The skill it takes to drive a sprint car or rally car doesnt translate at all to driving an open wheel car today.

[Joe Fan]

Fast One, I have to agree with you on Rally drivers being more versatile than any other driver in the higher echelon motorsports. They have my respect but in order for me to add more Rally drivers I need more information like I mentioned above. I would be interested to know who has won the most Monte Carlo Rallies as this seems to be WRC's crown jewel event. This list is a "name" list as much as anything else. Multiple championships and multiple crown jewel event winners establish a driver's credentials in their respective motorsport and bodes well for making my list.

jc_nl, RainMan has given you the main details about the World of Outlaws (WoO) Sprint Car series. It is an extremely exciting sport to watch as these car race on 1 mile and 1/2 mile dirt ovals. The races are real "dicey" and it is a blast to watch these 800 straight horsepower winged cars slip and slide through the corners. It also awesome to see an WoO driver hit the power and fly down an entire straightaway with their front wheels off the ground. My wife is a somewhat casual race fan but she loves World of Outlaws Sprint Car races. The series is gaining popularity every year here in the U.S.. I have tremendous respect for these drivers because they have to have awesome car control and skill to manouver these cars around an unpredictable dirt surface. Unfortunately, the sport suffers from its "dirt" image which doesn't excite some race fans.

[jc_nl]

It sounds like an interesting race serie, to bad it isn't broadcasted here in the Netherlands. I believe I only have seen these cars one in a blooper program, but that is sport at its worst.

[RainMan]

To jc_nl--

The Worl of Outlaws is just now starting to gain a lot of attention. I would predict that its coverage will increase quite a bit within the next few years, so hopefully you will be able to watch it someday.

[Megatron]

Joefan,

As an argument for people like Alan Kulwicki, in some ways, the fact that his carrer was so short adds to what he accomplished.

In 1986, he came to Daytona with a one race (that ultimatley led to a shoe string limited schedule) sponsorship, 3 employees, and a pickup truck/ trailer.

Not a very easy job, especially considering Kulwicki was considered an "outsider" for most of his Winston Cup carrer.

Zerex pulled out at the end of 1990, and just some of the people who reportadly offered Alan jobs were Rick Hendrick, Jr. Johnson, and Bud Moore, all strong operations at the time.

Kulwicki turned them all down to start the 1991 season with no backing, and picked up Hooters resturants as the primary backer 4 races into the season.

Then, up against the gaints Jr. Johnson, Yates, Jack Roush, and others, Alan won the title in 1992, a year that will stand out in my mind almost like the 1982 season for F1.

He was killed in a plane crash in early 1993, and after Alan spent so much of his life building his team up to major status, he lost his life before he had a chance to relax and enjoy his sucess.

In his final interview hours before the crash, Alan talked about how he was getting used to being champion and how it was starting to set in.

All this in just 6 years of NASCAR.

Alan reminds me of Gilles Villeneuve, a man who, if you look at the stats you won't see something that stands out, especially with only 5 carrer wins, but until you know the real story, you find out what make the legend tick.

I won't disguse the fact that I sometimes (just for a little while) lose interest in NASCAR, and really like F1 and CART a lot better, but in my mind, what Kulwicki done will always stand out in any forms of motorsport.

Thats my 2 cents.

[SLA]

Joe Fan, here´s list of some top rally artists WRC wins. WRC started 79, so this list is of past 21 years.

23 Kankkunen(4titles)
22 Sainz(2)
19 Mäkinen(4)
19 Auriol(1)
19 Alen (0)
18 Mcrae(1)
18 Mikkola(1)
14 Röhlr(2)

Problem with this list is that it really just includes years 79-99. Röhlr and Mikkola were active before this. And then of course those before 79, I don´t have info of that time.

Kankkunen with 23 wins is at no1 but he has probably also been robbed more wins thanks to teamorders than anyone else. He´s in my mind all time best rally driver. All time unluckiest (of those alive) would be Alen.

But it´s true there is no one clearly above everyone else.

(BTW, Tommi and Timo Mäkinen are not related.)

[This message has been edited by SLA (edited 12-16-1999).]

[This message has been edited by SLA (edited 12-16-1999).]

[RacerX]

How about Bill Vukovich. He won two Indy 500's in a row and was killed passing lapped traffic on his way to a third staight victory. His career was short, but dominating.

[Eric McLoughlin]

Although this topic is now getting a bit "old", I thought I'd throw in my "Tuppence Worth". What many Americans don't seem to realise is that there is very little crossover between different strands of motor sport in Europe. In America it is not unusual for a driver to develop his talents in Dirt Raoing and then graduate through to NASCAR or Indy/Champ cars - eventually. It is not unheard of for a driver to switch between NASCAR, off-road and open wheeled racing during the course of his career. In Europe. a driver with F1 ambitions will move probably through Karting. Formula Vauxhall-Opel, Formula Ford 1600, Formula Three, possibly Formula 3000 or even Champ Cars or Touring Cars and then Formula 1. Rally drivers usually graduate through the club rallying scene and, if spotted by one of the major manufacturers, will get a "works" drive in a national championship followed by "promotion" to a WRC drive. This is how Colin McRae and Richard Burns esatblished their careers.

Rally drivers and racers are a breed apart and rarely "cross over". On the odd occasion when it has happened in recent years, it has been F1 to rally and not the reverse and it usually ends in tears, eg Martin Brundle in this year's British Rally.
It is also very wrong to equate rallying with "World of Outlaws". Whatever about individual driver's talents, I am sure WOO does not attract huge financial and technical support from major motor manufacturers. Rallying has MORE support from the likes of Ford, Subaru, Toyota, Mitsubishi, Peugeot etc. than Formula 1 (although this is beginning to change as more big manufacturers move into F1). In the manufacturer's eyes, fans can identify with rally cars as they are ostensibly the same as cars they can buy and drive themselves.
Interestingly, in the 1980's, BBC TV used to run a Rally Driver V F1 Driver challenge for their "Grandstand" programme. Drivers such as John Watson, Derek Warwick and Derek Daly competed against Tony Pond, Roger Clark and Ari Vaatanen on both a rally course amd a road race track (Donnington - I think). Invariably, the rally drivers came out on top, including in the racing segments!
These segregations of motor sport disciplines also extends to motor cycle racing eg track racing, closed road racing (Isle of Man, Ulster TT), moto-cross and speedway and also to motor sport fans themselves. For example, very few of the fans who attend the British GP would be found anongst the throngs standing in the winter mud of Kielder Forest (often one of the stages of the British Rally).

Just to show that I am not "Anti" American style racing, I watch ALL the Champ Car races on Eurosport and many of the NASCAR races, although Eurosports NASCAR coverage is fragmented and does not assist in following the series properly.

Vive la difference!

[This message has been edited by Eric McLoughlin (edited 01-02-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Eric McLoughlin (edited 01-02-2000).]

[Joe Fan]

Eric, do you have any recommendations to add to my list? I am down to three drivers and I have pretty much made up my mind who they will be but I wouldn't mind hearing others opinions. At any rate, I will end up leaving off plenty of deserving names.

As far as Rally racing and why I haven't included more (I am still considering Carlos Sainz), I do think 4 wheel drive cars are the easiest to race as they are very stable.



[This message has been edited by Joe Fan (edited 01-02-2000).]

[Leo Landman]

Hi Joe,

Hey, this is a nostalgia forum, so when does your century start?
I'd like to suggest Mr. Renault who performed some miracles in the early years. He drove his puny car from say Paris to Bordeaux, at speeds that would frighten us today - if we had to do it on dirt roads.
This man must have been some driver!

Bye,
Leo

[Leo Landman]

Joe,

Just found some figures to support my nomination of Louis Renault: he drove his 30 hp car at an average speed of 62.3 mph for the 342 miles. The year was 1903!

So there...

Bye,
Leo

[Fast One]

Leo--

Mr. Renault has three strikes against him.

1) He's not American;

2) He wasn't a bootlegger or an oval track racer; and

3) He drove a car that actually turned both ways.

The 25 or so spots for those guys are already taken...

[Eric McLoughlin]

Joe Fan

As you suggested I help you reach the 100, how about adding a few Land Speed Record heroes. You have created a precedent by including Sir Malcolm Campbell in you list. My suggestions are:

John Cobb (also a reknowned Brooklands racer)
Al Teague
Craig Breedlove - the greatest LSR pilot of them all, in my opinion - even if he wasn't the first through the Sound Barrier.

[Joe Fan]

Eric, sorry but I have added all the Land Speed drivers I am going to add. I know that Land Speeders were big back in the early part of the century because the speeds obtained made for good news stories. The newspaper was THE form of media back then so Land Speeders probably were bigger than the IndyCar and Grand Prix drivers during this time. If you noticed, in addition to Campbell I also have Barney Oldfield on my list who was a big time land speed record holder in the early part of the century who also won a few IndyCar races too. I also have NASCAR driver Bobby Issac who still owns many world records today that he set on the Utah salt flats.

Fast One, if you don't like my list then how about creating your own top 100 list and sharing it with us? Keep in mind that Americans are citizens of the world too and nationality shouldn't matter. Also keep in mind that U.S. is the largest motorsports market in the world. The UK is the largest in Europe. With this in mind, having the largest motorsports markets in a particular region in your own backyard means that drivers from the U.S. and UK are going to have more opportunities and statistically should be represented more. Also keep in mind that the U.S., UK, France and Italy were the four countries that pioneered the motorsports world. I see no problem with having many Americans on my list. The U.S. takes its motorsports very seriously and if drivers are athletes then look at Olympic competition where the U.S. has the most gold medals all-time and double the amount of the next highest country.