During the duration of the 3-litre/1.5 forced induction formula (counting up to the end of the turbo era), which team used the most different types of engines?
I know Lotus had a lot - 2-litre Climax V8, 2-litre BRM V8, BRM H16, Cosworth, Renault V6, Honda V6 - were there more?
And what about other teams?
The Most Different Engines
Started by
Ray Bell
, Jan 03 2000 08:36
10 replies to this topic
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#2
Ray Bell
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Posted 11 January 2000 - 22:05
Perhaps McLaren figure in this one. Ford Indy V8, Serenissima V8, BRM V8, BRM V12, Cosworth V8, TAG-Porsche V6, Honda V6... Is that the most any had?
Brabham had Climax FPF, Repco V8, Cosworth V8, Alfa flat 12, Alfa V12, BMW 4.
Honda started the formula with V12, then built a V8 (sad story), then stopped racing their own cars.
Ferrari started with V12, then went flat 12, V6.
Williams started with Cosworth V8, went to Honda V6, then Mugen V8.
Come on folks, help me here . . .
Brabham had Climax FPF, Repco V8, Cosworth V8, Alfa flat 12, Alfa V12, BMW 4.
Honda started the formula with V12, then built a V8 (sad story), then stopped racing their own cars.
Ferrari started with V12, then went flat 12, V6.
Williams started with Cosworth V8, went to Honda V6, then Mugen V8.
Come on folks, help me here . . .
#3
Fast One
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Posted 11 January 2000 - 23:35
Ray--
Ferrari also started with a V-6, a 2.4 liter version of the older Dino, I think. Surtees felt the V-12 was too heavy and underdeveloped and wanted the V-6 for Monaco (In fact, he promised Dragoni he'd win with it). But Bandini got it, the 12 broke its transmission as predicted and Stewart won. One of Ferrari's problems in the '60's was that too often each car had a different engine design. Anyway, the V-6 lasted pretty far into the '66 season, cause Scarfiotti drove it at the Ring, where he outqualified Bandini and Parkes in the V-12's!!! My magazines for the rest of that year are lost, I think, so I don't know if the V-6 lasted the season.
Ferrari also started with a V-6, a 2.4 liter version of the older Dino, I think. Surtees felt the V-12 was too heavy and underdeveloped and wanted the V-6 for Monaco (In fact, he promised Dragoni he'd win with it). But Bandini got it, the 12 broke its transmission as predicted and Stewart won. One of Ferrari's problems in the '60's was that too often each car had a different engine design. Anyway, the V-6 lasted pretty far into the '66 season, cause Scarfiotti drove it at the Ring, where he outqualified Bandini and Parkes in the V-12's!!! My magazines for the rest of that year are lost, I think, so I don't know if the V-6 lasted the season.
#4
Psychoman
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Posted 12 January 2000 - 04:16
When did Williams use a Mugen-Honda engine???
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#5
Jonathan
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Posted 12 January 2000 - 12:12
Actually Williams used, if memory serves, a JUDD engine after Honda dropped them after the 1987 season. I think Williams had to scramble to get any engine at all. The Judd wasn't especially competitive. It was a few years before they started using the Renualt (A.K.A Supertec) Engine.
#6
Todd
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Posted 13 January 2000 - 02:27
Jonathan,
Williams only spent the 1988 season struggling with the Judd engine. March-Judd actually outscored Williams-Judd 22 to 20 in 1988. In 1989, Williams-Renault was 2nd in the constructors championship. In other words, there was only a one season lapse when Williams didn't have a top factory engine deal after Honda left. After Reanualt left, they only spent two seasons without a full factory ride before BMW came on board.
I've been thinking about Judd lately. They've built a good sportscar V10 that Team Raffanelli has shown impresive speed with. I wonder if they could do a better job than Hart supplying Minardi, Arrows, or Benetton.
Fast One,
Scariotti and Parkes both had V12s for Monza. I don't know what Bandini had. I suspect that most development focused on the 312 and therefore the Dino was rendered obsolete at some point.
Williams only spent the 1988 season struggling with the Judd engine. March-Judd actually outscored Williams-Judd 22 to 20 in 1988. In 1989, Williams-Renault was 2nd in the constructors championship. In other words, there was only a one season lapse when Williams didn't have a top factory engine deal after Honda left. After Reanualt left, they only spent two seasons without a full factory ride before BMW came on board.
I've been thinking about Judd lately. They've built a good sportscar V10 that Team Raffanelli has shown impresive speed with. I wonder if they could do a better job than Hart supplying Minardi, Arrows, or Benetton.
Fast One,
Scariotti and Parkes both had V12s for Monza. I don't know what Bandini had. I suspect that most development focused on the 312 and therefore the Dino was rendered obsolete at some point.
#7
Fast One
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Posted 13 January 2000 - 03:03
Todd--
It makes sense that the V-6 was dumped for Monza. It wouldn't have had much of a chance there. Enzo always did it up for his home race. I can't imagine that Bandini would have been in a Dino. He was Dragoni's fair-haired boy. I'm trying to track down the switch, but I'm guessing it was Monza.
It makes sense that the V-6 was dumped for Monza. It wouldn't have had much of a chance there. Enzo always did it up for his home race. I can't imagine that Bandini would have been in a Dino. He was Dragoni's fair-haired boy. I'm trying to track down the switch, but I'm guessing it was Monza.
#8
Todd
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Posted 13 January 2000 - 04:33
Fast One,
You're right that V12s would be expected at an open circuit like Monza. It certainly doesn't directly relate to all other circuits but I notice that most teams had full 3.0 liter engines by that point in the season and I imagine Ferrari's developed V12 was probably making enough power to justify itself by that point in the season.
You're right that V12s would be expected at an open circuit like Monza. It certainly doesn't directly relate to all other circuits but I notice that most teams had full 3.0 liter engines by that point in the season and I imagine Ferrari's developed V12 was probably making enough power to justify itself by that point in the season.
#9
Don Capps
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Posted 13 January 2000 - 04:42
I am doing this from memory, but for Monza I think Baghetti was in the Dino vee-6 entered by the Reg Parnell team. And Bandini in a vee-12 as well.
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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,
Don Capps
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#10
Ray Bell
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Posted 13 January 2000 - 04:59
Although I was trying to establish which team used the most different engines in the 66 to whatever 3-litre formula, I am persuaded to come in on this bit too.
The Judd engine, if memory serves me right, was a Honda engine of some sort, that's where my confusion came in.
Anyone know how this came about?
Yes, I did forget the Dino, which was in there in the same way that the Lotus used V8 Climax and BRMs and Eagle used the FPF Climax - a leftover that was able to be used.
I never read anything about Surtees promising he'd win Monaco with it, however. I'd like to know the source of that.
That car was the one built for Surtees to run in the Tasman series, 1966, but unused because he hurt himself in a Lola in Canada.
The Judd engine, if memory serves me right, was a Honda engine of some sort, that's where my confusion came in.
Anyone know how this came about?
Yes, I did forget the Dino, which was in there in the same way that the Lotus used V8 Climax and BRMs and Eagle used the FPF Climax - a leftover that was able to be used.
I never read anything about Surtees promising he'd win Monaco with it, however. I'd like to know the source of that.
That car was the one built for Surtees to run in the Tasman series, 1966, but unused because he hurt himself in a Lola in Canada.
#11
Fast One
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Posted 13 January 2000 - 06:38
Ray--
Big John was the source for the story that he promised Dragoni he would win the race with the V-6. I am looking for it, but I don't know if I have it, or read it in something I don't have. It's no secret he wanted the 6, and that's was the cause of the first big row of the season. I'm sure he was the source; I just have to try to find where I read it.
Big John was the source for the story that he promised Dragoni he would win the race with the V-6. I am looking for it, but I don't know if I have it, or read it in something I don't have. It's no secret he wanted the 6, and that's was the cause of the first big row of the season. I'm sure he was the source; I just have to try to find where I read it.
