96 replies to this topic

[F1razor]

Let me see if I can sum up Joe Fan's points.

1. There is no need for a Nostalgia forum because Formula One uses late 1800's technology in the form of open wheel and open cockpit designs, which are descendants of the horse and chariot days of ancient times. Based on this premise, he hence forth refers to open wheel/open cockpit as 'antiquated technology'.

2. He then states that NASCAR uses modern car designs and states that wings are
1960's technology.

3. He then says that he cannot view F1 as the pinnacle of motorsport or motorsport technology based on the above premise.

4. He then states that open wheel, open cockpit designs do not offer any advantage.

5. He then claims that fender to fender racing with the trademark 'banging' requires
more skill and more car control.

6. Then he states that he viewed this topic as 'new ammunition' to rile up CART and F1 fans, and he laughed internally as he thought of this topic, but then later thought better of it when he thought of Greg Moore's crash.

7. Then he says he is getting extremely pissed that the majority of us are blaming
accidents such as Greg Moore's on the tracks.

8. Then he attempts to wash his hands of the responses he knows that will be coming,
that we will percieve this as another NASCAR vs. F1 debate.

9. Then he claims that the intention of the post is not flame bait. (see point number
6)

10. He then claims that the fact that open wheel racing requires more skill is a 'myth'.

11. He then claims that the fact that open wheel cars are faster than closed cars, is debatable.

12. He then states that defending open/wheel open/cockpit cockpit designs makes one a 'reactionary', and what he is proposing, that is, abolishing CART abd F1 and relegating open wheel racing to lower formulas as 'training grounds' for how to pass properly, and blah blah blah, makes him a visionary.

13. He then suggests that CART change to a closed wheel series and 'ride NASCAR's coat tails'.

14. He then states that he is a leader.

[This message has been edited by F1razor (edited 01-08-2000).]

[Statesidefan]

Joe,

I have stayed out of this because F-1 Razor and Fast One have done a far better job than I in countering your absurd claims. I think though your true colors have shone through in one of your earlier posts.

In it you state that NASCAR could become the pinnacle of stock car racing in the world. That is of course nonsense as based on your original premise then FIA-GT, ACO/ALMS, Grand-Am, or Aussie V-8 Supercars would be more logical choices.

Please don't patronize us with the defense that you are interested only in safety and speak as a MOTORSPORT enthusiast. If this was true you would have to call for the more modern V-8 Supercars or the like to supercede NASCAR and its "antiquated" technology. You are a NASCAR enthusiast and that is OK, but don't try to make flame topics like this some safety crusade.

I am not opposed to change, but you have set an agenda that would allow only NASCAR to flourish in the US. As for your assertion that there huge numbers of deaths in open wheel cars.......Go look at 1967-70.

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"The strategy of a Formula One race is very simple. It's flat out from the minute the flag drops." Mario Andretti 1976

[Statesidefan]

Oh I forgot.............................................................

HAIL NASCAR!!!!

[Joe Fan]

Well, I was planning to follow the advice of Fast One and let the issue die but I have been replied to by Statesidefan so I have to respond.

Statesidefan, forget NASCAR as this isn't about NASCAR it is about open wheel racing and whether or not it is time to shed the antiquated car design concepts that keep get reinvented every year in F1 and CART, for the sake of safety.

I started out as an open wheel fan as IndyCar and the Indy 500 was the big thing back in the 70's in the U.S. when I was growing up. My very first race I attended as a child was a local open wheel sprint car race (my father was good friends with one of the drivers). The frequency of deaths and injuries in these designs over the years compared to closed wheel series was a factor in my switch of affinities to that other big closed wheel series. It definately wasn't the only reason why my affinity grew for the tin tops as there are many other important reasons which I do not care to discuss at this moment but certainly a very key one. I don't think I am the only person whose affinity for that other big series grew over time for some of the same reasons. When a series uses less than safe designs that cause you to have more grief over time, one gets introspective to why they were attracted to this series that causes them greater grief in the first place.

I did expect to hear that some of my claims are/were absurd but I personally think it is absurd for major motorsports series to keep re-inventing antiquated late 1800's car design concepts year in and year out with the knowledge and statistics we have about the safety of these cars. I still love and respect open wheel racing it is just that I would like to see the cockpits enclosed and that these open wheel designs move to lower stepladder series where speeds and horsepower are lower. As I stated earlier, how many more eulogies will be enough? How many more drivers will have to be paralyzed before others see the light? You or others can discount my views or try to pin them down on me as cloaking this to promote NASCAR but that isn't the case. This is just a convenient way for these people to make sense of it all in their minds who refuse to be open minded enough accept reality and change.



[This message has been edited by Joe Fan (edited 01-08-2000).]

[Fast One]

Joe--

Are you going to start over? They aren't antiquated; they aren't unsafe; they aren't any of the ignorant and absurd things you claim. You didn't make your case. You, as always, ignore every valid counter argument and continue to chant the mantra. Joe, you are worse than some friggin cult member. You drone on saying nothing over and over again until we can't stand it anymore and get pissed. If you don't like Grand Prix racing, take a hike. We'll do fine without you and NASCAR will do fine without us. But sweet jeezus, knock it off with this crap okay?

[Joe Fan]

Fast One, take your own advice: give it up! I am not going to talk to you or F1Razor about this subject any longer. You two have proven to be stubborn, unreasonable and have failed to see the main issue. I have proved my case and you guys will defend the open wheel, open cockpit design at all costs. You two have agendas so you aren't fooling anybody either "Open wheel, open cockpit racing, right or wrong!" You won't publicly admit I have valid points because it is a negative against the sport(s) you are trying to grow in this country. Instead you guys either evade the main issue and/or attack and defend he who questions. I am sorry but no sport deserves that kind of blind following and support. And you claim I am like a cult member? I have a mind of my own and I am an independent thinker.

Since you guys can't counter my argument I will do it for you guys and show you that it doesn't have to get personal. Here goes:

Joe you have made some valid points about the open wheel, open cockpit design. These designs while conceptually not being progressive do offer something different to the world of motorsports. You have made valid safety concerns and the loss of any driver does hurts the motorsports world. Any change at improving the car's safety I am for. Even if that means making the cars closed wheel or enclosed cockpit. Closing the wheels or enclosing the cockpit isn't going to stop making it racing or Formula One. However, what is one to do in the mean time? If there are willing participants who know the risks, I will continue to follow it. Nobody is putting a gun up against these driver's heads and making them race these cars.

[This message has been edited by Joe Fan (edited 01-08-2000).]

[Statesidefan]

Joe,

Rodriguez, Bellof, Gartner, McLaren, Behra, Levegh, Bianchi, Bonnier, Bonnett, Nemecheck, Stommelen, and Roberts were all killed in closed wheel and/or closed cockpit designs. All racing cars are less safe than sitting in an easy chair, but people race anyway.

I never countered your claim that open wheel was less safe, just that NASCAR was the pinnacle of stock car racing. I think open wheel cars are by their nature (faster, more talented drivers at the limit, varying tracks, varying weather.) less safe. LIVE WITH IT. The drivers do. They know it is dangerous.

I don't like anyone getting killed, but they know the risks. Would you ban motorcycle racing? How about horse racing? I raced some novice motocross and hare scrambles. I knew I could get hurt and I did sometimes, but I did it. (Hopefully I will again when my daughter is a little older.)

If the FIA and CART want to put fenders on the cars then they will measure the potential response and act accordingly. Fine. I can live with that. What I find amusing is your assertion that NASCAR could then be the pinncle of "stock car" racing. I think the Aussie V-8 fans might have a problem with that. As well as BTCC, DTM, FIA-GT, and other series fans.

You know what would make a great LeMans? If some of the drivers from the "pinnacle" of stock car racing woud have the BALLS to go to LeMans this summer. But I digress.....I shoudn't try to start a NASCAR debate, but you cannot go a post on this F-1 BB without tossing the Daytona gang in there.

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"The strategy of a Formula One race is very simple. It's flat out from the minute the flag drops." Mario Andretti 1976

[Joe Fan]

Statesidefan, after I finished editing my post and adding the paragraph to the bottom of it, I seen your post. It seems that my counter argument I made for Fast One and F1Razor is pretty much what what you had said. You are at least a reasonable person on this issue.

As far as including the Daytona gang, I am sorry but when looking at safety of cars that go 200mph, NASCAR has to be used for comparison data in this argument. As far as NASCAR being the pinnacle of stock car racing, I don't think too many people would disagree but that is an off topic discussion in itself.

[This message has been edited by Joe Fan (edited 01-08-2000).]

[Fast One]

Joe--

You amaze me , Joe!You are one of the least reasoning and least logical people I have ever crossed paths with. Unable to formulate an effective argument of your own, you can only take your adversaries arguments and try to turn them around on them. Give it up, Joe. You just don't have the debating skills. But Razor, Stateside and I are foolish, too. One simply cannot reason with an anti-intellectual. People like you aren't interested in reasoned, rational debate; you are interested in bringing others arguments down to the level of yours by chanting your mindless mantras until they are maddened by the monotony.

The best thing we could all do with you is ignore you. Your arguments and ideas are not worthy of the waste of my time. You don't know your facts. You wallow in self-flattery, confusing people's efforts to be nice and give you a hearing with admiration. Leader my ass! A leader hears eveyone's point of view and renders an objective decision. You enter with a pre-set point of view, handed down on stone tablets by Big Bad Bill from Hooterville, and ignore all valid counter arguments as if they didn't exist.

When things start to escalte, and we politely ask you to refrain from pushing things into the realm of the ugly, you drone on all the louder. It is clear to just about everyone that you don't like Grand Prix racing at all, your insincere denials to the contrary. You never just discuss Formula 1; you instead only mention it when you can find a way to try to compare it unfavorably with NASCAR. That is your sole purpose here, and you know it. Razor was spot on about that. And you do knowing that if you piss us off enough to overreact, WE will be the ones who get kicked off.

Unless you have absolutely no life outside of the internet, I would suggest your time would be more profitably spent on a NASCAR site, where you can muse with those who see the world as you do and fondly remember the days when you all had teeth. Then the rest of us could discuss Grand Prix racing, instead of wasting good time teaching monkeys to type Shakespeare.

Don't bother replying. I'm on my way out of town and won't see it anyway. Besides, I need to cool down and ask myself why I bother with you. Nothing maddens a reasable man more than a man who can't reason. So I am going to convince myself to ignore you and spare myself the agony if I can.

Don, I'm checking out of this thread now to avoid ending up where you did a few weeks ago. I hope when you read this, you'll see I tried to be fair and reasonable. And I hope you'll finally see what Joe is up to as well.

[Statesidefan]

Joe,

I actually think that ACO cars should be the basis for compairison, but that is another thread. I'm checking out on this topic as it is getting ugly. For what its worth I know you have teeth. I'm glad I abstained for several days as I won't get banned like Fast One!!

Hail NASCAR!

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"The strategy of a Formula One race is very simple. It's flat out from the minute the flag drops." Mario Andretti 1976

[F1razor]

Let me add a little brevity here, and sum up what Fast One is saying Joe:

You are behaving like a child.

[Joe Fan]

As expected, more of the same: attack the messenger because the message is hard to attack. I don't care how much flack I receive from my viewpoints on this matter or how much bullshit people try to come up as far as my motives because someone needs to speak up on these issues if we are going to transend the gladiator mentality that still evidently permeates our society and culture.

I know deep down that there are others out there who agree that bigger changes are needed in safety than adding a chicane here or a gravel trap there. Remaining silient only result of more of the same.

The major problem that some people have had here is that my viewpoints challange their innermost beliefs. This is a discussion not about Joe Fan's motives, debates skills, behavior, etc., this is whether or not outdated technology should retained for the sake of safety. Speak up on the issues itself and lay the personal bullshit a side as it only indicates to me who has lost the debate.

[Keith Steele]

Joe I think the point you are missing is really simple. You don't like the way the sport is configured. Fair enough. I asked earlier what everyone thought of Paul Gentilozzi. The reason I asked is because he drives in a very unsuccesful series called the Trans-am. Which as many of us know is tin tops on road courses. It doesnt sell. If Nascar ran only on road courses effective next year, you'd see it all end in a short time.

There are people who enjoy any kind of racing. There are people who enjoy a specific series. Heck some people even enjoy swamp buggy racing. What I have seen is clear through this whole debate, is that you no longer enjoy Cart and F1 because they are too dangerous. Fair enough. State your belief as such. I agree that Cart shouldnt run on super speedways anymore. They should stay on one-mile ovals and road courses. See where we all despise the death that ocasionally occurs, I also despise many things about the current Nascar. What is my answer to that. I stopped watching. There was a time about five years ago when I would go into Nascar chats and give what I thought to be reasonable arguements to how Nascar has changed etc... I finnally figured out I liked hammering some of these people who couldnt form an arguement against me and would stoop to name calling. Thankfully it got old quick, and I realized who the F am I to judge what someone else enjoys? Gonzalo was the first guy to die at Laguna Seca in forty one years. That's a long time. If Greg was in a Nascar, which hasnt seen speeds of 200+ mph in years, but say he was and the car was travelling at the same speeds as his Indy Car, and he made impact at 150g upside down. Im not sure hed be alive to tell about it, he might be. We'll never know. As far as antiquated technology. How about carberator. When was the last time a car came stock with anything but fuel injection? The covered wagon is also 1800's technology for the record.

Thankfully it doesnt happen often but the last type of car you want to be in if there is a fire is a tin top. So while Nascar has enjoyed tremendous success and thankfully few fatalities you should be knocking on wood, instead of looking to raz the open wheel crowd. Because as you admitted that was part of your motivation. You'd have done it sooner had Greg not died. So Joe do what I did and just stop watching the things you don't enjoy. It's that simple.

[davo]

Joe,

I am interested to your reply to a hypothetical situation...

Your concept of moving F1 and Indycar to a sportscar type formula is looked on favourably by FIA and implemented. Everything is going swimmingly until a high profile driver (lets say yet another Kennedy with future political ambitions) is shockingly injured in a race accident. He dies days latter in a hospital to huge international media coverage.

The Lithuania Basket Weaver's Guild campaigns for a total ban on motorsport due to the unacceptable risks.

How would you argue a continuation of closed roof / closed wheel motorsport. It is after all only safer than that antiquated open wheeler rubbish that was banned years ago.

Looking forward to your reply,

Davo

P.S. There are two concepts to the term antiquated the first being that it is old the second that it has been superseded by something newer. While by its very nature a nostalgia forum concedes the first requirement I do not think that "it is a truth universally acknowledged" that the second requirement has been met :-)

[Don Capps]

I think I am going to shut this thread down after another day since it seems to have resulted in several severely beated horses that are on the back of a truck headed for the glue factory.

I would have intervened earlier, but I am in the middle of moving to my new duty station and it has been hectic.



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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

Semper Gumbi: If this was easy, we’d have the solution already…

[F1razor]

Close it up quick Don, because Like Fast One, I am plain fed up with this ego maniac.

Whatever you say about us Joe, at least we aren't suffering from delusions of granduer. I find it quite ironic that you feel like you have 'won the debate', when the only thing you have done is lost your last shred of credibility on this board with several very intellectual and gracious members of this board who have BENT OVER BACKWARDS to try and tolerate your anti-Open Wheel racing agenda and reason with you.

Let me remind you again that you are not fooling a single solitary soul. It's right there in balck and white, your purpose is to attack open wheel fans, and you laugh internally as you do so. That means:

YOU LOSE.

The silent majority on this thread is DEAFENING. The only people left even dealing with your absurdity is the type A's.

[This message has been edited by F1razor (edited 01-09-2000).]

[Joe Fan]

Stirling Moss once said that part of the allure of motorsports is the danger. It is sad that people cannot be attracted more to motorsports for the people involved and the competitive nature of the sport. Perhaps the gladiator-type mentality can be part of the blame for why Sports Car racing has never really taken off and sustained momentum especially on the other side of the Atlantic. I think Don Panoz is on the right track (no pun intended) to creating the pinnacle of motorsports with his American Le Mans Series. There is something there for everyone with Ferrari, Porsche, BMW, Dodge, Chevrolet, and independent designs of Lola, Riley and Scott, Panoz, etc. with engines like Ford and Judd. Open cockpit and enclosed cockpit designs. Drivers from all over the world. It is a nice blend for everyone who is a road racing fan only. This series deserves more attention and fandom.

Keith, I love and respect all forms of motorsport so I will continue to watch and hope that the leadership of these major series see the light and make some major changes. I don't have to be attracted to open wheel, open cockpit cars because of the danger. I am attracted to motorsports for the people involved in the sport and the competition. It is just that these series can never move up to #1 in my heart and in my household due to the unquestionably more dangerous designs. I cannot see myself taking my 6 year old daugther to one of these races when the reality of a driver being paralyzed or being killed is enhanced due to these designs. However, I would have no problem taking her to a World of Outlaws or NASCAR race which I have alreay done.

Losing your favorite driver in a design that is no doubt more dangerous is irrational. Motorsports has become a more driver-driven sport in its popularity and attraction. Virtually everyone has one favorite driver that has captured their heart, imagination and enthusiam. Losing your favorite driver in a fatal crash would almost be the equivalent of you losing your favorite NFL team, the Minnesota Vikings forever.

While I have tremendous respect and apprecition for drivers who race open wheel, open cockpit designs and open wheel racing in general, I just feel that it is time to for these designs to move to lower series where the speeds and horsepower are lower. Eliminating high speed ovals from the CART schedule might help but I feel it is ignoring the central issue and what is the IRL supposed to do? And these designs still took Gonzalo Rodriguez from us on a road course and it took Michael Schumacher out of a championship hunt late in the season.

Davo, I don't belive your hypothetical situation would realistically happen but even if it did, I doubt that there would be much public outcry when the intentions of improving safety were good. There is no car design that 100% guaranteed to be safe safe but I think moving in the direction I am suggesting would lower the risks.

[Keith Steele]

Um, Joe. World of Outlaw driver Kevin Gobrecht died this year as well. It is probably thee most dangerous form of four wheel motorsport there is.

[Joe Fan]

Keith, Kevin Gobrecht's death was a result of his car being on its side and being hit by a competitor. The roll cages they use do a good job at protecting the driver in rolls but this was an freak accident that was attributed to another driver accidently hitting him. At least there was some protection for the driver's head with the roll cage where there is none in CART, IRL and F1. Calling one death in 69 events in one year the most dangerous four wheel sport is silly when compared to CART having two in 20 events this year. I don't remember any other World of Outlaw drivers being killed recently but I have in other USAC sprint car series on pavement.

[This message has been edited by Joe Fan (edited 01-09-2000).]

[Fast One]

Joe--

A typical World of Outlaws feature event has 8-12 minutes of green flag racing; a typical CART event has 1 1/2 to 2 hours, so using an average of 10 mins. vs. 1 3/4 hours means that WOO suffered one death in 11 1/2 hours of racing. CART suffered two deaths in 35 hours of racing, or one every 17 1/2 hours, which works out to 3 deaths in WOO to each two in CART. Clearly it is time to ban those rediculously dangerous and antiquated ovals, which cater to slower cars and inferior drivers. Ban WOO, too; it's a bloodbath!

You should learn how statistics are properly used befor citing them.

[srf]

People are getting a bit out of proportion here... there may have been two deaths in CART this year, but in 25 years there have been a total of what 3 driver deaths? Racing fans are more at risk than the drivers are.

[Joe Fan]

Fast One, gimme a break! 8-12 minutes of green flag racing? Have you ever been to a WoW event? There are two non-qualifier races, a C feature, a B feature, a "Dash for Cash" race and then the A feature race. This adds up to a lot more than 8-12 minutes of green flag racing.

[Fast One]

srf--

You will learn that Joe frequently "gets ouy of proportion".

Joe--

Yes I have and I timed the feature at 8 minutes of green flag and about 3 minutes of yellow flag racing. I'm not talking about prliminaries. CART has several hours of practice and qualifying, so if you want to go that route, it looks even worse for WOO.

Clearly this dangerous situation can no longer be tolerated. Thanks to Joe, everyone, for making clear the carnage that goes on in the WOO and that it needs to be banned NOW. We can't wait for more deaths.

BAN OVAL RACING BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!!!

[Statesidefan]

Joe,

I have figured this thing out. You see Bonnett, Moore, Senna, Nemecheck, Rodriguez, Fireball Roberts were all killed in the same situation......left turns! Think about it. Tamburello, any oval, the entrance to the Corkscrew. Yep it is those damn left turns that are the cause of the carnage. Ban 'em.

Joe. To really make a valid point I think you need to prove that the accidents involving death in open wheel cars would have been prevented in a tin top. Moore would probably be dead no matter what. 154 G more than likely turned his brain to mush. Sorry but that's the facts. Senna and Gonzalo I'll give you. What about the rest?


PS. I happen to agree about Don Panoz.

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"The strategy of a Formula One race is very simple. It's flat out from the minute the flag drops." Mario Andretti 1976

[Dennis David]

Joe - One last point from me. Take a look at the latest MotorSport. It includes a car that may fit your idea. Closed canopy, single seater with fairing on each wheel.

Got to go.

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Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

[MattC]

Dennis:

Is that the article where Gordon Murray sketches out his fantasy F1 rules in pictorial form (which on closer inspection turns out to be televised Scalectrix)?

[Dennis David]

That's it but look at the first drawing also. ;-)

------------------
Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

[Joe Fan]

Dennis, is this the issue with Damon Hill on the front? I seen it last friday but didn't think there was anything good in it. You know, same old pictures and stories about the same old antiquated technology(just kidding).

[Joe Fan]

Fast One and F1Razor, have you seen the latest issue of MotorSport (January 2000)? He he he!

[Nikolas Garth]

Joe's been a very, very bad boy.

[Statesidefan]

Joe,

Look at the Jan. issue of Road & Track. In it Sam Posey tells of the first year of F-5000 with fenders. THe aerodynamic lift caused Redman to crash and break his neck.

Hmmmmmm. How many open wheel cars have flown a'la Mercedes at LeMans?

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"The strategy of a Formula One race is very simple. It's flat out from the minute the flag drops." Mario Andretti 1976

[Statesidefan]

Joe,

Look at the Jan. issue of Road & Track. In it Sam Posey tells of the first year of F-5000 with fenders. THe aerodynamic lift caused Redman to crash and break his neck.

Hmmmmmm. How many open wheel cars have flown a'la Mercedes at LeMans?

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"The strategy of a Formula One race is very simple. It's flat out from the minute the flag drops." Mario Andretti 1976

[Joe Fan]

Statesidefan, a full bodied car style (at least a well designed one) gives the car more downforce on the front of the car. The airflow travels along the nose of the car to create the downforce. This also varies with how much the front valence is. I think the problem with the Mercedes car at Le Mans was weight and front valence related. If you don't have enough weight in the front of the car (especially a rear engined car) that is already lighter than a Winston Cup stock car and there is too much front valence, at high speeds the situation that happened at Le Mans and at Road Atlanta in 1998 can happen at high speeds. These problems are easily correctable and as engine technology improves to make engines lighter, this allows constructors to put more weight in the front of the car where it is more beneficial. The parameters of car designs can be easily changed to increase the safety of the drivers with closed wheel, enclosed cockpit designs and at the same time retain the same speeds.

[This message has been edited by Joe Fan (edited 01-15-2000).]

[Ray Bell]

You've not seen Manfred Winkelhock at the Nurburgring?

[Joe Fan]

P.S. They didn't add a chicane at the end of the long straight at Le Mans did they? So I guess the problem will be solved correctly.

[BigWig]

Open wheel racing is clearly more dangerous than nascar racing. It is 18 Century horses and chariot crap. I vow never to watch another F1 or CART race again in my life. I am eagerly awaiting the start of Daytona. JoeFan, here I am your humbly converted zombie, I await your bidding. Dear leader, lead me.

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Bigwig, you know, from Watership Down.

[Joe Fan]

So what does everyone think about taking some of the concepts pictured below to make F1 and CART cars safer?



This is a NASCAR Featherlite Modified Series car. This series is a lower touring division in NASCAR and interesting to note, the oldest NASCAR division.



[This message has been edited by Joe Fan (edited 01-28-2000).]

[Dennis David]

Joe - I love you like a brother but that's the ugliest piece of **** I've seen in a long time. ;-)

------------------
Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

[Ray Bell]

But judging by the 'power bulge' it must be fairly interesting to drive. It is a dirt tracker, isn't it?

[Joe Fan]

Dennis, I know it isn't something of beauty but that is why I suggested using some of the concepts. I also found in that Grand Prix
book you recommended to me a while back (the one without the index-I can't find it now) that in 1968 they had a similar idea and constructed a proto type car using a Ferrari (312 if I remember correctly). Check it out, it is on the first page of the year 1968. It isn't an enclosed cockpit but offered better protection in side impacts.

Ray, that car pictured above races only on paved courses, short to intermediate oval tracks mainly but also races at one road course event at Watkins Glen.

[Fast One]

If it takes driving some butt-ugly, technically obsolescent piece of **** like that to make racing "safe", then I say, "Let the carnage begin!" And I thought current F1 cars were ugly. Joe, those cars aren't safer. They are just garbage scows with tires. It's ovals that are dangerous, and it's time we ban them and the esthetically challenged designers that foist on an ignorant public crap cars like the one shown above under the misnomer racing cars.

Can we PLEASE abandon this rediculous thread?

Oh yeah, Joe, I read the article In Motorsport. How nice that you want to replace real racing with slot cars. How nice that Gordon Murray has made it clear why he is no longer capable of designing competitive Formula 1 cars.

[Joe Fan]

Fast One, you are a tough grader, I thought I would at least get half credit with this one.

[Fast One]

LMAO! Joe, did you just crack a joke? No credit for the design submission, but an "A" for the clever response! By the way, when I taught college, I was known as a very tough grader.

[Joe Fan]

Fast One, you taught (past tense) college? Hey welcome back to the real world!

[Fast One]

Feeling your oats, are you? Yeah, I taught, but it was along time ago. Taught in Switzerland, too. I returned to the "real world" (which, by the way, isn't much more real) for the last time in 1984, so I'm used to it by now. I miss it sometimes, to be honest, but would never teach in the States again in the current environment.

By the way, since we are momentarily not hurling insults, you once brought up that you thought Graham Hill was very underrated. When I put my list out a few weeks ago, you didn't comment on Hill's high standing. I know we were feuding, but I was surprised you didn't comment on it. Keeping that list over the years and seeing Hill's place on it were two of the things that got me thinking about what really made a great driver. Graham's speed was underrated, but I think he was slower than the other big guns of the era. Yet look how successful he was. He clearly had something going for him.

[Dennis David]

Hey, I hope you know I was just kidding. But let's close this thread. Ah Don?

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Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

[Don Capps]

Show's over. This puppy has had its moment upon the stage and been kicked around enough. Thanks one and all for your interest in National Defense... oops, wrong macro!

Next topic please...

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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

Semper Gumbi: If this was easy, we’d have the solution already…